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Thu May 7 11:55:25 BST 2009

>no athlete trains 80 hours a week<

Correct....and no athlete is responsible for anyones' lives but their own.

We are growing a new breed of physician - and they are apparently happy to accept the shift work mentality.  Along with that goes the concept that once they leave the hospital they have given up all of their responsibilities until they return.

Sad.  Very sad.  And scary, 'cause that same person is going to be caring for YOU and ME one day, but only 8 hours at a time..........IF we are lucky enough!

Signed,
The Dinosaur

-----Original Message-----
From: trauma-list-bounces at trauma.org [mailto:trauma-list-bounces at trauma.org] On Behalf Of Andre Carneiro
Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2009 4:38 PM
To: Trauma and Critical Care mailing list
Subject: Re: to Doc Holiday-DELAYED response

Whilst I completely agree that we trainees are not being exposed to enough
workload (48 hours! Are they mad??), I would also like to remind you that no
athlete trains 80 hours a week (no matter how serious they are about their
performance) and high performing athletes are well aware of the risk of
overtraining.
Meaning that surely there must be a happy medium that doesn't mean we live
in a complete state of tiredness which, I believe, has been proven time and
again to lead to incidents of varying degrees of severity.

Best wishes from across the pond

Andre de Castro Carneiro
Specialist Registrar
Anaesthetics and Critical Care
The Leeds Teaching Hospitals NHS Trust

2009/5/6 Jose Luis Danguilan <jdanguilan at gmail.com>

> I fully agree with Dr. Gross. We seem to baby the new generation of
> surgical
> residents. Hard work has never killed anyone. Fire makes steel strong in
> the
> same way challenges toughen a person or did I get my metaphors mixed up?
>
> A fellow triceratops,
>
> Jose Luis J. Danguilan, MD
> Manila, Philippines
>
> On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 7:26 PM, Gross, Ronald <
> Ronald.Gross at baystatehealth.org> wrote:
>
> > And when you finally finish your truncated 5 year surgical residency,
> with
> > protected educational time, sleep time and no more that 80 hours per
> week,
> > and you have to go out into the REAL world, will your patients understand
> > that you need to go home now 'cause you're sleepy, and someone they have
> > never seen will be caring for them?
> >
> > Athletes learn endurance by working harder and longer in their workouts
> > then they have to do in the "real deal".  Our stakes are FAR higher than
> any
> > athletes' stakes, and yet we are failing to teach our residents the
> expanse
> > of knowledge they will need, and we are failing to prepare them for the
> real
> > world, where there isn't protected education time, and guaranteed sleep
> > time.
> >
> > I know, my wife has told me on several occasions that I am a dinosaur.
>  She
> > is probably right.....but this dinosaur has been true to his calling, and
> > will never stop being fully responsible for the care of his patients -
> all
> > the time!
> >
> > (OOPS, need to take a nap now.  Worked too long.........)
> >
> > Best to you all,
> > Ron
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: trauma-list-bounces at trauma.org [mailto:
> > trauma-list-bounces at trauma.org] On Behalf Of khumar huseynova
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2009 4:50 PM
> > To: trauma-list at trauma.org
> > Subject: to Doc Holiday-DELAYED response
> >
> > Dr Holiday, sorry for retarded response-just read your note on resident
> > hours (March). Thanks and yes, you are right, there is evidence that long
> > hours result in reduced effciency and eventual harm to the patient. I
> dont
> > think I will ever agree witht eh 48hr/wk schedule for SURGERY
> residents-it
> > has to be MORE than that. Am not saying 120hrs, but should be reasonable
> > enough to get suffucuent experience and not to feel 'dead' at the end of
> the
> > day. Maybe someone needs to design a study to determine the cutoff...
> > And you are right, there are perhaps other ways of increasing the quality
> > of residency without making the hours too long as well. The problem is,
> > given how conservative the health care system is, it will take decades to
> > change it.
> > Cheers. KH
> >
> >
> >
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