List Archives

Sat Jun 13 12:26:24 BST 2009

yah-- I have an MS pt who begged me to find someone to *read her magnets*,
assured she could be helped if that occurred..

still, I located a massage therapist who has helped her tremendously. Laying
of hands? Placebo effect? Dunno.. It just is-- and none of us get out of
here alive.

Charlene

On Sat, Jun 13, 2009 at 6:57 AM, Lorick Fox, MPAS, PA-C
<lorick at lorick.org>wrote:

> Tim,
>
> You are exactly correct.
> The question (not statement) that I raised based on what was clearly
> labeled
> anecdote was if the individual practitioner might actually make difference
> in acupuncture (and not only has that not been studied, but I have zero
> clue
> how it could be done).
>
> The infamous "acupuncture anesthesia of appendectomy" didn't happen.  They
> used what clearly sounds like an epidural in the original article.
>
> Moreover, even with the pressure of our old friend Chairman Mao to
> "incorporate traditional Chinese care" with science based care, the medical
> people in China couldn't do it.  If they couldn't, in fear for their life,
> it does seem unlikely there was much evidence of benefit even to them.
>
> That said, and totally based on anecdotal experiences, I am unwilling to
> rule out energy fields related to the body - as it would clearly upset
> Master Yoda.  Use the Force Fiona!
>
> On the other hand it is arguably better to dismiss such categorically.
> The next thing that might happen is that someone adopt the ludicrous
> concept
> that electrical activity in the body could be detected (are you ready for
> this?) by attaching metal leads to the skin, or even claim to see inside
> the
> body using magnets.  Ever heard anything more ridiculous??
>
> Lorick
>
>
> Lorick Fox, MPAS, PA-C
> Gianaclis Support Complex
> +20-3-448-2335 or +20-45-240-9450
> Fax +20-45-243-1191
> Mobile +20-18-230-4448
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: trauma-list-bounces at trauma.org [mailto:trauma-list-
>  > bounces at trauma.org] On Behalf Of htaed_rd at 123mail.org
> > Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 10:43 AM
> > To: Trauma-List [TRAUMA.ORG <http://trauma.org/>]
> > Subject: Re: Alternative therapies (OT)
> >
> > Many people have misrepresented this study.
> >
> > Here is the way they present it:
> >
> > Acupuncture is better than standard therapy.
> >
> > Here is the way that they should present it:
> >
> > Acupuncture is the same as placebo, when given in addition to standard
> > medical treatment.
> >
> > All of the patients were receiving the standard medical treatment.
> >
> > Some patients received individualized acupuncture in addition to
> > standard medical treatment.
> >
> > Some patients received standard acupuncture in addition to standard
> > medical treatment.
> >
> > Some patients received fake acupuncture in addition to standard medical
> > treatment.
> >
> > If the criterion for not being snake oil is performing better than
> > placebo, acupuncture is clearly snake oil.
> >
> > Of course, this is just one study. It would be a mistake to base such a
> > harsh dismissal of acupuncture on just one study.
> >
> > Acupuncture has been studied before with the same result.
> >
> > Acupuncture = Placebo = Snake Oil
> >
> > Tim Noonan.
> >
> > Medscape needs to consider some continuing education on the scientific
> > method before they start hawking this swill. NCCAM proving exactly what
> > it is worth.
> >
> >
> > On Fri, 12 Jun 2009 23:24 -0430, "listasmsd" <listasmsd at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > >From Medscape Medical News
> > >
> > > Actual or Simulated Acupuncture Therapy May Be Effective for Chronic
> Low
> > > Back Pain CME/CE
> > > News Author: Laurie Barclay, MD
> > > CME Author: Désirée Lie, MD, MSEd
> > >
> > >
> > > CME/CE Released: 05/20/2009; Valid for credit through 05/20/2010
> > >
> > > May 20, 2009 - Actual or simulated acupuncture therapy appears to be
> > more
> > > effective than usual care for chronic low back pain, according to the
> > > results of a randomized controlled trial reported in the May 11 issue
> of
> > > the
> > > Archives of Internal Medicine.
> > >
> > > "Acupuncture is a popular complementary and alternative treatment for
> > > chronic back pain," write Daniel C. Cherkin, PhD, from the Center for
> > > Health
> > > Studies in Seattle, Washington, and colleagues. "Recent European trials
> > > suggest similar short-term benefits from real and sham acupuncture
> > > needling.
> > > This trial addresses the importance of needle placement and skin
> > > penetration
> > > in eliciting acupuncture effects for patients with chronic low back
> > > pain."
> > >
> > > In this study, 638 adults with chronic mechanical low back pain were
> > > assigned to receive individualized acupuncture, standardized
> > acupuncture,
> > > simulated acupuncture, or usual care. All acupuncture groups received
> 10
> > > treatments administered by experienced acupuncturists during a 7-week
> > > period. The main endpoints of the study were back-related dysfunction
> > > measured with the Roland-Morris Disability Questionnaire (scored 0 -
> 23)
> > > and
> > > symptom bothersomeness (scored 0 - 10), evaluated at baseline and after
> > > 8,
> > > 26, and 52 weeks.
> > >
> > > At 8 weeks, improvements in mean dysfunction scores were 2.1 points for
> > > those receiving usual care, 4.4 points for individualized acupuncture,
> > > 4.5
> > > points for standardized acupuncture, and 4.4 points for simulated
> > > acupuncture (P < .001). Compared with participants receiving usual
> care,
> > > those receiving real or simulated acupuncture were more likely to
> > achieve
> > > clinically meaningful improvements on the dysfunction scale (60% vs
> 39%;
> > > P <
> > > .001).
> > >
> > > In the usual-care group, symptoms improved by 0.7 points vs 1.6 to 1.9
> > > points in the treatment groups (P < .001). Clinically meaningful
> > > improvements in dysfunction persisted in the treatment groups vs the
> > > usual-care group after 1 year (59% - 65% vs 50%, respectively; P =
> .02),
> > > but
> > > symptom improvements were not significantly different among groups (P >
> > > .05).
> > >
> > > "Although acupuncture was found effective for chronic low back pain,
> > > tailoring needling sites to each patient and penetration of the skin
> > > appear
> > > to be unimportant in eliciting therapeutic benefits," the study authors
> > > write. "These findings raise questions about acupuncture's purported
> > > mechanisms of action. It remains unclear whether acupuncture or our
> > > simulated method of acupuncture provide[s] physiologically important
> > > stimulation or represent[s] placebo or nonspecific effects."
> > >
> > > Limitations of this study include restricting treatment to only the
> > > needling
> > > component of traditional Chinese acupuncture, predetermined number and
> > > duration of treatments, limited conversation between the acupuncturists
> > > and
> > > the patients, and lack of a medical care comparison group.
> > >
> > > "The reduction in long-term exposure to the potential adverse effects
> of
> > > medications is an important benefit that may enhance the safety of
> > > conventional medical care," the study authors write. "The number of
> > > patients
> > > who would need to be treated with insertive or superficial acupuncture
> > > stimulation to result in 1 person achieving meaningful improvement in
> > > function ranges from 5 (for short-term benefits) to 8 (for persisting
> > > benefits)."
> > >
> > > A National Institutes of Health Cooperative Agreement with the National
> > > Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine funded this study.
> > > Lhasa
> > > OMS, Inc, Weymouth, Massachusetts, donated the Seirin acupuncture
> > needles
> > > used in this study. The study authors have disclosed no relevant
> > > financial
> > > relationships.
> > >
> > > Arch Intern Med. 2009;169:858-866.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Open minded means being open to evidence.
> > >   Being open minded to things with no evidence means you've let your
> > > brain fall out.
> > >
> > > Note: the 'open minded' defence is the classic tactic of alties. It
> > > signals that you have no evidence and therefore no argument, but just
> > > want to try and make the other person look bad. It's the equivalent of
> > > saying 'can't you take a joke' to someone you've just insulted.
> > >
> > > Acupuncture has been extensively studied, as has the 'life force' and
> > > auras. See the James Randi Educational Foundation website, and more
> > > importantly, follow the challenge link on the site and see what
> > > happens when this stuff is put to the test.
> > >
> > > I'm open minded - offer me reproducible positive studies, and
> > > falsifiable data, and I will change my mind in an instant. Belief
> > > should be reserved for religion, if you are that way inclined.
> > >
> > > Fiona.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 12/06/2009, at 6:50 PM, Lorick Fox, MPAS, PA-C wrote:
> > >
> > > > Absence of proof is not proof of absence.
> > > > I tend to suspect that you are right, but as it has NOT been studied
> > > > (although there is some work comparing reports of "aura" among
> > > > people who
> > > > claimed to able to perceive such and it was neither consistent nor
> > > > supportive of their claims).
> > > >
> > > > I therefore reserve judgment.
> > > > I view keeping an open mind is the scientific approach.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Lorick Fox, MPAS, PA-C
> > > > Gianaclis Support Complex
> > > > +20-3-448-2335 or +20-45-240-9450
> > > > Fax +20-45-243-1191
> > > > Mobile +20-18-230-4448
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> -----Original Message-----
> > > >>> To: Trauma-List [TRAUMA.ORG <http://trauma.org/>]
> > > >> Subject: Re: Alternative therapies (OT)
> > > >>
> > > >> There is no such thing as 'life energy' except the stuff that comes
> > > >> out of defibrillator paddles (and then only when it works)
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
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>
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-- 
The one important thing I have learned over the years is the difference
between taking one's work seriously and taking one's self seriously. The
first is imperative and the second is disastrous.
Margot Fonteyn

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