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Tue Jul 28 05:12:33 BST 2009

I'm not particularly arguing for one or the other.

Just pointing out that the anti government stance is no more logical  
than the anti industry stance.

Everyone is cherrypicking their data, it seems; NASA ( a government  
agency, last time I looked) has its problems, but Spirit, Opportunity  
and Phoenix are good examples to show what's possible when motivated  
people come together to achieve and the government is picking up the  
tab. FEMA was a disaster, but a major issue there was the private  
system idea that if someone can run a company then they can also run a  
government department and disaster response. Internationally, the ESA  
is doing well, and despite the setback last year, the LHC shows what  
collaboration between countries and government funding can achieve.

The dotcom boom was a classic example of runaway markets, as is the  
current recession. And yet under other circumstances private  
investment can be very successful.

So let's stop picking our favourite examples of government or industry  
cockups to justify individual positions, and instead come up with  
evidence and data that can be used to show the way forward.

Fiona

BTW, if insurance is the big satin, is the government too silky for you?

On 28/07/2009, at 10:53 AM, KMATTOX at aol.com wrote:

> FIONA:
>
> It seems that is you that in your post have shifted the goal posts  
> from the
> government being the enemy or the one rushing to change the  
> regulation TO
> THE  INSURANCE COMPANY AS BEING THE BIG SATIN, and creating rules  
> which are
> unfair to  hospitals, doctors, and patients, and denying care,  
> increasing
> the hassle  factor, while taking 25% profit off the top.
>
> Otherwise, it seems to me that you and Norm and supporting the same
> concept.
>
> Remember, it is possible to have a government as a protector, not a
> provider, and in that protection, they can collect money, such as  
> user fees,  etc.
> and distribute those dollars to local areas for local solutions to  
> local
> problems.    That is done in so many areas of our  society.   Where  
> the
> Centrist Government in our country or any others  get into the  
> personal aspects
> of peoples lives (religion, banking, health care,  education, etc),  
> it gets
> all fuzzy and inefficient.    If you  liked what FEMA did for the  
> country and
> for individuals after Katrina, you are  going to love HEALTH CARE  
> under our
> centrist government in the United  States.
>
> k
>
>
>
>
>
> In a message dated 7/27/2009 7:42:47 P.M. Central Standard Time,
> tielserrath at yahoo.co.uk writes:
>
> If  you're going to make a case for this you need to stop shifting the
> goalposts. First govt employees have no incentive to be productive,
> now govt systems are simply 'unworkable'. Obama is going to make the
> health system 'unworkable' like the others. What, exactly, do you   
> mean?
>
> There seems to be a lot of complaining about possible changes,  but
> very little factual evidence about why those changes will, or  will
> not, work. Just the inevitable 'private good, government bad'  that
> seems to pass for rational discussion in the States nowadays.   
> Everyone
> seems to be ignoring the fact that the govt is currently  bailing out
> the private sector with billions of dollars that could  have been
> better used elsewhere.
>
> As Pret has pointed out,  working only in high-level trauma care  
> offers
> a somewhat skewed view  of the health system. Only a tiny minority of
> the population ever  requires these services. What is important is
> excellent primary care  and appropriate and timely access to secondary
> care on an inpatient  and outpatient basis. Plus being able to change
> employment without  having to worry about losing health insurance. And
> rationalisation  of preventive treatment - which inevitably means
> making it free - to  reduce costs further downstream, without letting
> moralising  interfere.
>
>
> Fiona.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 28/07/2009, at 8:45  AM, McSwain, Norman E Jr. wrote:
>
>> I know that that are plenty of  workable systems elsewhere. I am
>> lucky enough to see some of  them at work. The reality however is now
>> we are faced at making  the US system work without bankrupting the
>> entire country. Our  president has suggested a system that does not
>> improve the  healthcare provided but only shifts the cost to the
>> government  from the privates. Like it or not, we cannot suddenly
>> make ours  like others. Unfortunately that is what he is trying to do
>> but  without looking at the whole picture. We have several unworkable
>> government systems Making the healthcare system unworkable like  the
>> others will be very BAD for our patients. He is changing  the good
>> without changing the bad and making a system that will  be much more
>> expensive than our current one.
>> Norman
>>
>> Norman McSwain MD
>> Trauma Director, Charity  Hospital
>> Professor of Surgery, Tulane University
>> New Orleans  LA
>> 504 988 5111
>> norman.mcswain at tulane.edu  <mailto:norman.mcswain at tulane.edu>
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> From:  trauma-list-bounces at trauma.org on behalf of Fiona Wallace
>> Sent: Mon  7/27/2009 5:25 PM
>> To: Trauma-List [TRAUMA.ORG]
>> Subject: Re:  Centrist vs Local Social Systems
>>
>>
>>
>> Capitalists  seem to struggle with the concept that there are many of
>> us in the  health service for whom a fat paycheck is not the driving
>> force. The  vast majority of people I have worked with both in  
>> medicine
>> and  nursing consider it primarily vocational.
>>
>> There are doctors  and nurses in many first world countries who work
>> for a salary that  most in the States would consider risible, yet  
>> do an
>> excellent job  within a variety of systems. The nursing staff I
>> currently work with  are all on permanent contracts as government
>> employees, yet there is  no dead wood and everyone, without  
>> exception,
>> works well and extremely  hard.
>>
>> Sorry, Norman - you need to step outside your own system  and see  
>> what
>> is really possible elsewhere.
>>
>> [because  after all, Goldman-Sachs is such a shining example of how
>> private  banking has done so much for the ordinary American.
> http://www.smirkingchimp.com/author/matt_taibbi
>>  ]
>>
>> Fiona
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 27/07/2009,  at 7:35 AM, McSwain, Norman E Jr. wrote:
>>
>>> Sorry to disagree  but I think it is the system that has failed or
>>> has allowed the  entity to fail. There are many other well known
>>> similar systems  that failed when they have become 'federalized' .
>>> One of these is  well known medical system and the other one is a
>>> travel agency.  Both of these systems started off with very good
>>> intentions until  the members lost the incentive to be productive  
>>> and
>>> were just  looking for a place to remain protected and get their
>>> paycheck.  More interested in the paycheck than the service that  
>>> they
>>> were  supposed to provide to the public. But of course that is a
>>> person  opinion from one who is capitalist who believes in being
>>> required  to be productive in order to get paid.
>>>
>>> Norman
>>>
>>> Norman McSwain MD
>>> Trauma Director,  Charity Hospital
>>> Professor of Surgery, Tulane  University
>>> New Orleans LA
>>> 504 988 5111
>>> norman.mcswain at tulane.edu  <mailto:norman.mcswain at tulane.edu>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>>
>>> From:  trauma-list-bounces at trauma.org on behalf of Doc Holiday
>>> Sent: Sun  7/26/2009 2:24 PM
>>> To: .Trauma List
>>> Subject: RE:  Centrist vs Local Social  Systems
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From:  nmcswai at tulane.edu
>>>
>>>
>>>> left out the other  'wonderful' social system...US postal  
>>>> service...
>>>
>>> ==> When it comes to nationally sponsored bodies he may have  also
>>> left out the US Military and the judicial system, not only  the
>>> USPS... There are success stories and failures, be they  among
>>> capitalist entities or "socialised" ones or "federalised"  ones;
>>> likely therefore that it is the entities which are at fault,  not  
>>> the
>>> sysem within which they live. The UK postal office is not  held up  
>>> as
>>> an example of success either.
>>> _________________________________________________________________
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>>> and
>>> emoticons.
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