List Archives

Tue Dec 30 05:15:57 GMT 2008

Personal opinion .............taught to me by my first surgeon mentor:

"A surgeon never yells or throws instruments. It is a sign of one who has lost control. When you lose control of your self, you have lost control of the operating room and your patient's welfare"

Take for what it is worth. I  have lived that as my motto and have never regretted it.

Norman

Norman McSwain MD
Trauma Director, Charity Hospital
Professor of Surgery, Tulane University
New Orleans LA
504 988 5111
norman.mcswain at tulane.edu <mailto:norman.mcswain at tulane.edu> 

________________________________

From: trauma-list-bounces at trauma.org on behalf of Angela
Sent: Mon 12/29/2008 11:06 PM
To: trauma-list at trauma.org
Subject: is yelling accepatable?? ever??

I work with a pariticular trauma surgeon and he loses his temper easily and resorts to yelling and screaming at all staff until hiis orders are done and things go his way overall .  My trauma team are no amateurs and have a good flow when it' s gets busy.  Your walking on egg shells around him because no one  knows what will upset him.  And he never says ," sorry for acting out of line." Thouhghts?

JMH hospital , MIami

> From: trauma-list-request at trauma.org
> Subject: trauma-list Digest, Vol 66, Issue 29
> To: trauma-list at trauma.org
> Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 22:30:08 +0000
>
> Send trauma-list mailing list submissions to
>       trauma-list at trauma.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>       http://list.mistral.net/mailman/listinfo/trauma-list
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>       trauma-list-owner at trauma.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of trauma-list digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: trauma-list Digest, Vol 66, Issue 28 (luisfr28 at gmail.com)
>    2. Ang: John Pryor, M.D. (Johan Malmgren)
>    3. new text - Essentials of Terror Medicine (Jeffrey Hammond)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 12:47:39 +0000
> From: luisfr28 at gmail.com
> Subject: Re: trauma-list Digest, Vol 66, Issue 28
> To: trauma-list at trauma.org
> Message-ID:
>       <1741287733-1230554855-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-466765912- at bxe034.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
>      
> Content-Type: text/plain
>
> Sadness and violence reflects the enviroment of conflicts like irak does, but Dr Pryor had vissions and reflections about the civilian violence and war, his washington post article shows it, like a surgeon , like a man, from Venezuela ,i present my repect and really sorry your loss..
> Enviado desde mi BlackBerry de Movistar
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: trauma-list-request at trauma.org
>
> Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 12:00:10
> To: <trauma-list at trauma.org>
> Subject: trauma-list Digest, Vol 66, Issue 28
>
>
> Send trauma-list mailing list submissions to
>       trauma-list at trauma.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>       http://list.mistral.net/mailman/listinfo/trauma-list
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>       trauma-list-request at trauma.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>       trauma-list-owner at trauma.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of trauma-list digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: John Pryor MD (listasmsd)
>    2. Re: John Pryor MD (Sohail Muzammil)
>    3. Re: John Pryor, M.D. (nappio at aol.com)
>    4. Re: John Pryor, M.D. (Karim Brohi)
>    5. Re: John Pryor, M.D. (Forrest Robleto)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 08:27:10 -0400
> From: "listasmsd" <listasmsd at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: John Pryor MD
> To: "Trauma &amp; Critical Care mailing list" <trauma-list at trauma.org>
> Message-ID: <7472F9B54BAA456096E8F96F0D453419 at compaq>
> Content-Type: text/plain;     charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Meaning what a pity? or very sorry? or it hurts?
> cordially
> Manuel Sotelo
> Caracas D.C.
>
>
> Que lastima!!!
>
> Charlene
> in NC.
>
> On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 12:12 PM, <moore677 at aol.com> wrote:
>
> > >From Pat Reilly at Penn............
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Patrick M. Reilly <reillyp at uphs.upenn.edu>
> > To: Forrest O. Moore <moore677 at aol.com>
> > Sent: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 9:43 am
> > Subject: EAST Mail: John Pryor MD
> >
> >
> >
> > I've tried to call many of the Penn Trauma family personally over the last
> > several hours.  I apologize if I have not gotten through to you.  You're
> > welcome
> > to give me call if you would like.
> >
> > Sorry to need to forward this email...
> >
> >
> >
> > It is with profound sadness and an overwhelming sense of loss that we send
> > this
> > communication. Last evening we were notified that Major John Pryor was
> > killed by
> > enemy fire in Iraq. John was serving his second tour as a combat surgeon
> > with
> > the United States Army. He deployed on December 6th and had been on
> > location
> > with a forward surgical team.
> >
> >
> >
> > John came to the University of Pennsylvania in 1999 after completing his
> > surgical training at the State University of New York in Buffalo. After
> > his
> > Fellowship in trauma surgery and critical care he joined the faculty of
> > the
> > Department of Surgery and currently was serving as the Trauma Program
> > Director
> > for the Hospital of the University of Pennsylvania.
> >
> >
> >
> > "JP" was a magical man, with boundless energy and goodness. He as was a
> > devoted
> > son, husband, father, colleague and friend. He was an outstanding
> > physician,
> > gifted surgeon, teacher and mentor. At his core were many great values but
> > his
> > passion for service to others and gave back something to each and everyone
> > of
> > us, everyday. His favorite quote, by Albert Schweitzer, hangs in his
> > office
> > and
> > it captures the essence of John Pryor.
> >
> >
> >
> >            ".. Seek always to do some good, somewhere. Every man has to
> > seek in
> > his own way to realize his true worth. You must give some time to your
> > fellow
> > man. Even if it's a little thing, do something for those who need help,
> > something for which you get no pay but the privilege of doing it. For
> > remember,
> > you don't lie in a world all your own. Your brothers are here, too."
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >  John's sudden death while serving as a physician on the battlefield, is a
> > very
> > personal loss for the many of us who have worked side by side with him in
> > our
> > Emergency Department,  OR's and ICU's, and all the more stark coming
> > unexpectedly in this h
> > oliday season. All of us have lost one of our "brothers".
> > Our thoughts are with his wife Carmella Calvo, their three children and
> > all
> > the
> > family.
> >
> >
> >
> > We will pass on further information about services and ways in which we
> > can
> > help
> > the Pryor family as they become available.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > C. William Schwab MD
> >
> > Chief, Division of Trauma and Critical Care
> >
> >
> >
> > James Mullen MD
> >
> > Interim Chair, Department of Surgery
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > trauma-list : TRAUMA.ORG <http://trauma.org/>
> > To change your settings or unsubscribe visit:
> > http://www.trauma.org/index.php?/community/
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Do not follow where the path may lead.
> Go instead where there is no path and leave a trail. "
> ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson
> --
> trauma-list : TRAUMA.ORG
> To change your settings or unsubscribe visit:
> http://www.trauma.org/index.php?/community/
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 19:12:24 +0500
> From: "Sohail Muzammil" <sohailmuzammil at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: John Pryor MD
> To: trauma-list at trauma.org
> Message-ID:
>       <17ede7bb0812280612u41a171f6ld9b8d882f9dd3b68 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Dear Dr Mattox,
>
> A very touching eulogy for a fallen comrade. My prayers go out to all lives
> so needlessly lost to this; indeed to all conflicts. It is a sad reflection
> on the state of humanity that arguments still need to be settled with sharp
> instruments and explosives. It remains our onerous duty to patch up as best
> we can the results of man's inhumanity to man; and perhaps raise a voice
> against this insanity (as you Dr. Mattox often do).
>
> Regards
> S Muzammil, FRCS
>
> PS: Eid Al Adha (and the Hajj) passed recently. Ramadan was about a couple
> of months ago.
> .....................
> ....Third, how so very sad to loose John Pryor during this special time of
> the
> year.    For all of the major faiths with which we in the United  States are
> most familiar, their festive and holy times are now:   Christianity,
> Judaism,
> Islam, Quanza.    Yes, even Ramadan is  now......
>
> ....We each will rededicate our genetically predetermined professionalism to
> be
> built on the foundations of your work.
>
> Kenneth L. Mattox, MD
> Houston
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 15:19:23 +0000
> From: nappio at aol.com
> Subject: Re: John Pryor, M.D.
> To: "Trauma &amp; Critical Care mailing list" <trauma-list at trauma.org>
> Message-ID:
>       <1526666961-1230477618-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2061082293- at bxe293.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
>      
> Content-Type: text/plain
>
> Karim, although there may be countless individuals throughout the year that may benefit from good will, I feel during this special season many on the trauma.org site would like very much to show their support to the Pryor family thru a scholarship donation for his children. Possibly directly into a 529 savings plan.  Is that something the list administration could consider spearheading or any colleagues' of his who are on the list?David Napoliello md facs
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: KMATTOX at aol.com
>
> Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 15:04:47
> To: <ccm-l at ccm-l.org>; <trauma-list at trauma.org>
> Cc: <SURGINET at listserv.utoronto.ca>
> Subject: John Pryor, M.D.
>
>
> To the many families, friends, and colleagues of Dr. John Pryor. 
> 
> First, John died doing what he and all on these lists are genetically 
> programmed to do - care for their fellow men and women, give them a chance at 
> survival and recovery and to return them as a functional member of  society.    
> John trained in his chosen profession to be the  medical adventurer that is an
> understandable underlying and unquenchable force  which is present in each of
> us.    Going to the heart of danger,  both in the large inner city hospital as
> well as in a war in bay off lands, we  see the toughest of the tough; the task
> which others might retreat or shirk  from, John found his peace while
> attempting to piece together the most complex  of cases.  
> 
> Second, John understood the illogic of his chosen field of trauma  surgery.  
> He understood that the streets of Philadelphia were just as  dangerous as the
> venues of hostility in a country at war.   He  understood that he was
> predestined to be in the heat of the battle, whether it  be Philadelphia or Mosal.   
>   It was his fate to patch  up the secondary effects of man's inhumanity to
> man.    Yes, in  an ideal world preventive strategies would completely
> eliminate the area of  surgical skill where John was most skilled and comfortable, the
> need for John  Pryor's in the future will never be eliminated.    Now and for
>  the long foreseeable future, the acute care trauma critical care surgeon
> will at  the pinnacle of physicians in demand and needed in communities around
> the  world, especially the United States.    
> 
> Third, how so very sad to loose John Pryor during this special time of the 
> year.    For all of the major faiths with which we in the United  States are
> most familiar, their festive and holy times are now:   Christianity, Judaism,
> Islam, Quanza.    Yes, even Ramadan is  now.   
> 
> Some on these list knew John Pryor very well and their loss is most  severe. 
>  Our hearts, prayers, support, and understanding are extended  to them.  
> Some knew John peripherally or were just learning of his  developing career
> trajectory.   Still others only suffer as they know  John represents the kind of
> surgical spirit that all surgeons possess.   Yes, John Pryor has the trauma
> surgeon's genome.   There is no need  for question or discussion.   We each in our
> own way know exactly why  John was in Iraq.   On another day, the loss could
> have been any one  of us. 
> 
> John:  as a soldier, we respect and salute you.
>           as a teacher, we  seek to emulate you. 
>           as a visionary, we  support you.
>           as a surgeon we  recognize your master skills
>           as a human, we  applaud and memorialize your unique and lasting
> contributions.
> 
> We each will rededicate our genetically predetermined professionalism to be 
> built on the foundations of your work. 
> 
> Kenneth L. Mattox, MD
> Houston
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> **************One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail,
> Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now.
> (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000025)
> --
> trauma-list : TRAUMA.ORG
> To change your settings or unsubscribe visit:
> http://www.trauma.org/index.php?/community/
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 20:52:07 +0000
> From: "Karim Brohi" <karimbrohi at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: John Pryor, M.D.
> To: "Trauma &amp, Critical Care mailing list" <trauma-list at trauma.org>
> Message-ID:
>       <b8b351510812281252n3e7637eeucd21a06083a3741e at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> DavidOf course.  I'm happy for trauma.org to coordinate this, although it'll
> be a little difficult for me to set up from here.  If you or someone close
> to John can set this up we can make donations available through the website.
>  Otherwise I could set up a Paypal account for people to donate to and then
> forward proceeds to his family or an appropriate intermediary.
> I know John was close to many people on this list, in the US and
> internationally, and we'll do everything we can to help his family.
> Karim
>
> 2008/12/28 <nappio at aol.com>
>
> > Karim, although there may be countless individuals throughout the year that
> > may benefit from good will, I feel during this special season many on the
> > trauma.org site would like very much to show their support to the Pryor
> > family thru a scholarship donation for his children. Possibly directly into
> > a 529 savings plan.  Is that something the list administration could
> > consider spearheading or any colleagues' of his who are on the list?David
> > Napoliello md facs
> > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: KMATTOX at aol.com
> >
> > Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 15:04:47
> > To: <ccm-l at ccm-l.org>; <trauma-list at trauma.org>
> > Cc: <SURGINET at listserv.utoronto.ca>
> > Subject: John Pryor, M.D.
> >
> >
> > To the many families, friends, and colleagues of Dr. John Pryor.
> >
> > First, John died doing what he and all on these lists are genetically
> > programmed to do - care for their fellow men and women, give them a chance
> > at
> > survival and recovery and to return them as a functional member of
> >  society.
> > John trained in his chosen profession to be the  medical adventurer that is
> > an
> > understandable underlying and unquenchable force  which is present in each
> > of
> > us.    Going to the heart of danger,  both in the large inner city hospital
> > as
> > well as in a war in bay off lands, we  see the toughest of the tough; the
> > task
> > which others might retreat or shirk  from, John found his peace while
> > attempting to piece together the most complex  of cases.
> >
> > Second, John understood the illogic of his chosen field of trauma  surgery.
> > He understood that the streets of Philadelphia were just as  dangerous as
> > the
> > venues of hostility in a country at war.   He  understood that he was
> > predestined to be in the heat of the battle, whether it  be Philadelphia or
> > Mosal.
> >  It was his fate to patch  up the secondary effects of man's inhumanity to
> > man.    Yes, in  an ideal world preventive strategies would completely
> > eliminate the area of  surgical skill where John was most skilled and
> > comfortable, the
> > need for John  Pryor's in the future will never be eliminated.    Now and
> > for
> >  the long foreseeable future, the acute care trauma critical care surgeon
> > will at  the pinnacle of physicians in demand and needed in communities
> > around
> > the  world, especially the United States.
> >
> > Third, how so very sad to loose John Pryor during this special time of the
> > year.    For all of the major faiths with which we in the United  States
> > are
> > most familiar, their festive and holy times are now:   Christianity,
> > Judaism,
> > Islam, Quanza.    Yes, even Ramadan is  now.
> >
> > Some on these list knew John Pryor very well and their loss is most
> >  severe.
> >  Our hearts, prayers, support, and understanding are extended  to them.
> > Some knew John peripherally or were just learning of his  developing career
> > trajectory.   Still others only suffer as they know  John represents the
> > kind of
> > surgical spirit that all surgeons possess.   Yes, John Pryor has the trauma
> > surgeon's genome.   There is no need  for question or discussion.   We each
> > in our
> > own way know exactly why  John was in Iraq.   On another day, the loss
> > could
> > have been any one  of us.
> >
> > John:  as a soldier, we respect and salute you.
> >          as a teacher, we  seek to emulate you.
> >          as a visionary, we  support you.
> >          as a surgeon we  recognize your master skills
> >          as a human, we  applaud and memorialize your unique and lasting
> > contributions.
> >
> > We each will rededicate our genetically predetermined professionalism to be
> > built on the foundations of your work.
> >
> > Kenneth L. Mattox, MD
> > Houston
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > **************One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail,
> > Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now.
> > (
> > http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000025
> > )
> > --
> > trauma-list : TRAUMA.ORG
> > To change your settings or unsubscribe visit:
> > http://www.trauma.org/index.php?/community/
> > --
> > trauma-list : TRAUMA.ORG
> > To change your settings or unsubscribe visit:
> > http://www.trauma.org/index.php?/community/
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 18:19:37 -0500
> From: "Forrest Robleto" <farcpr at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: John Pryor, M.D.
> To: "Trauma &amp, Critical Care mailing list" <trauma-list at trauma.org>
> Message-ID:
>       <2277979f0812281519o5df09733j10ea26715d89d88d at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> I'm not too far away,  I check tomorrow to see what it would take to set
> this up.
>
>
> V/R
>
> Forrest Robleto
> R House Health & Safety
> www.RHouseTraining.com
> FRobleto at RhouseTraining.com
> 609-792-9047
>
>
>
>
> Fran Lebowitz  - "My favorite animal is steak."
>
> On Sun, Dec 28, 2008 at 3:52 PM, Karim Brohi <karimbrohi at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > DavidOf course.  I'm happy for trauma.org to coordinate this, although
> > it'll
> > be a little difficult for me to set up from here.  If you or someone close
> > to John can set this up we can make donations available through the
> > website.
> >  Otherwise I could set up a Paypal account for people to donate to and then
> > forward proceeds to his family or an appropriate intermediary.
> > I know John was close to many people on this list, in the US and
> > internationally, and we'll do everything we can to help his family.
> > Karim
> >
> > 2008/12/28 <nappio at aol.com>
> >
> > > Karim, although there may be countless individuals throughout the year
> > that
> > > may benefit from good will, I feel during this special season many on the
> > > trauma.org site would like very much to show their support to the Pryor
> > > family thru a scholarship donation for his children. Possibly directly
> > into
> > > a 529 savings plan.  Is that something the list administration could
> > > consider spearheading or any colleagues' of his who are on the list?David
> > > Napoliello md facs
> > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: KMATTOX at aol.com
> > >
> > > Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 15:04:47
> > > To: <ccm-l at ccm-l.org>; <trauma-list at trauma.org>
> > > Cc: <SURGINET at listserv.utoronto.ca>
> > > Subject: John Pryor, M.D.
> > >
> > >
> > > To the many families, friends, and colleagues of Dr. John Pryor.
> > >
> > > First, John died doing what he and all on these lists are genetically
> > > programmed to do - care for their fellow men and women, give them a
> > chance
> > > at
> > > survival and recovery and to return them as a functional member of
> > >  society.
> > > John trained in his chosen profession to be the  medical adventurer that
> > is
> > > an
> > > understandable underlying and unquenchable force  which is present in
> > each
> > > of
> > > us.    Going to the heart of danger,  both in the large inner city
> > hospital
> > > as
> > > well as in a war in bay off lands, we  see the toughest of the tough; the
> > > task
> > > which others might retreat or shirk  from, John found his peace while
> > > attempting to piece together the most complex  of cases.
> > >
> > > Second, John understood the illogic of his chosen field of trauma
> >  surgery.
> > > He understood that the streets of Philadelphia were just as  dangerous as
> > > the
> > > venues of hostility in a country at war.   He  understood that he was
> > > predestined to be in the heat of the battle, whether it  be Philadelphia
> > or
> > > Mosal.
> > >  It was his fate to patch  up the secondary effects of man's inhumanity
> > to
> > > man.    Yes, in  an ideal world preventive strategies would completely
> > > eliminate the area of  surgical skill where John was most skilled and
> > > comfortable, the
> > > need for John  Pryor's in the future will never be eliminated.    Now and
> > > for
> > >  the long foreseeable future, the acute care trauma critical care surgeon
> > > will at  the pinnacle of physicians in demand and needed in communities
> > > around
> > > the  world, especially the United States.
> > >
> > > Third, how so very sad to loose John Pryor during this special time of
> > the
> > > year.    For all of the major faiths with which we in the United  States
> > > are
> > > most familiar, their festive and holy times are now:   Christianity,
> > > Judaism,
> > > Islam, Quanza.    Yes, even Ramadan is  now.
> > >
> > > Some on these list knew John Pryor very well and their loss is most
> > >  severe.
> > >  Our hearts, prayers, support, and understanding are extended  to them.
> > > Some knew John peripherally or were just learning of his  developing
> > career
> > > trajectory.   Still others only suffer as they know  John represents the
> > > kind of
> > > surgical spirit that all surgeons possess.   Yes, John Pryor has the
> > trauma
> > > surgeon's genome.   There is no need  for question or discussion.   We
> > each
> > > in our
> > > own way know exactly why  John was in Iraq.   On another day, the loss
> > > could
> > > have been any one  of us.
> > >
> > > John:  as a soldier, we respect and salute you.
> > >          as a teacher, we  seek to emulate you.
> > >          as a visionary, we  support you.
> > >          as a surgeon we  recognize your master skills
> > >          as a human, we  applaud and memorialize your unique and lasting
> > > contributions.
> > >
> > > We each will rededicate our genetically predetermined professionalism to
> > be
> > > built on the foundations of your work.
> > >
> > > Kenneth L. Mattox, MD
> > > Houston
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > **************One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail,
> > > Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now.
> > > (
> > >
> > http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000025
> > > )
> > > --
> > > trauma-list : TRAUMA.ORG <http://trauma.org/>
> > > To change your settings or unsubscribe visit:
> > > http://www.trauma.org/index.php?/community/
> > > --
> > > trauma-list : TRAUMA.ORG <http://trauma.org/>
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> End of trauma-list Digest, Vol 66, Issue 28
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 18:01:54 +0100
> From: Johan Malmgren <johan.malmgren at vgregion.se>
> Subject: Ang: John Pryor, M.D.
> To: <trauma-list at trauma.org>
> Message-ID:
>       <OF886468BA.F309BE54-ONC125752E.005D8F20-C125752E.005D8F22 at vgregion.se>
>      
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 17:21:54 -0500
> From: Jeffrey Hammond <hammond at umdnj.edu>
> Subject: new text - Essentials of Terror Medicine
> To: "trauma-list at trauma.org" <trauma-list at trauma.org>
> Message-ID: <fc421c0385a1.49590732 at umdnj.edu>
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> End of trauma-list Digest, Vol 66, Issue 29
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is yelling accepatable?? ever??