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Sat Nov 17 00:29:58 GMT 2007

My hat's off to anyone who can be in the trauma business and not be pessimistic ... 

Good for you!

Jane

	-----Original Message----- 
	From: trauma-list-bounces at trauma.org on behalf of Ronald Gross 
	Sent: Fri 11/16/2007 5:34 PM 
	To: Trauma &amp; Critical Care mailing list 
	Cc: 
	Subject: RE: Veterans Without Healthacare

	Sorry jane - I lived those days too, but I guess I just don't share your pessimism about this country - and its people.

	Index of suspicion?  None.

	Ron

	>>> "Harper, M  Jane" <M.Jane.Harper at osfhealthcare.org> 11/16/2007 3:24 PM >>>
	LOL since we learned to duck and cover in grade school!  And learned who
	Joe McCarthy was ...

	It's written over the door to the National Archives, those who do not
	learn from the past are doomed to repeat it.  I think we CAN prevent
	this, but not until we recognize it's possible.

	Index of suspicion, nu?

	Jane

	-----Original Message-----
	From: trauma-list-bounces at trauma.org
	[mailto:trauma-list-bounces at trauma.org] On Behalf Of Ronald Gross
	Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 2:01 PM
	To: Trauma &amp; Critical Care mailing list
	Subject: RE: Veterans Without Healthacare

	So tell me Jane - just how long have you been wearing those rose-colored
	glasses?

	>>> "Harper, M  Jane" <M.Jane.Harper at osfhealthcare.org> 11/16/2007 2:12
	PM >>>
	The scariest part, to me, about Mike's scenario is the vision of soup
	lines and burning mark notes ... we know what happened in Germany after
	THAT.  Don't tell yourself it couldn't happen in the US.  The difference
	is that when fascism comes to America, wrapped in the American flag and
	carrying a cross and a Bible, it will be armed with nukes and biological
	weapons.  And then, earning Euros won't protect you from the raining
	death.

	----------------------
	Jane Harper, PhD(c), RN, ACNP, CCNS, CCRN
	Trauma Advanced Practice Nurse
	OSF St. Anthony Medical Center
	Rockford, IL
	815-227-2539 or pager 548
	m.jane.harper at osfhealthcare.org

	-----Original Message-----
	From: trauma-list-bounces at trauma.org
	[mailto:trauma-list-bounces at trauma.org] On Behalf Of Mike Smertka
	Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 1:04 PM
	To: Trauma &amp, Critical Care mailing list
	Subject: Re: Veterans Without Healthacare

	----The government-run VA system is a mess, as Michael Moore has pointed
	out in his last "documentary".

	  Liberal though I may be, I certainly would not use Michael Moore as a
	source for anything except entertainment.
	    -------So, now he (and a good segment of America) wants to make all
	health care in the US government-run as well? This does not compute,
	Will Robinson.

	  Here are a couple of points I see:

	  A good segment of America has the political will to change the current
	system. The current healthcare system in America from trauma to medicare
	is a total failure. The idea of employer paid systems puts undue legacy
	costs on companies driving up the cost of products, driving down demand,
	and reducing the number of total workers.

	  A system where "everyone" pays, the mythical single payer system,
	means only the producers of society pay, afterall if it is deducted from
	your paycheck, you have to actually get a paycheck to deduct from.
	Currently the amount of consumers in society in the US far outstrips the
	producers. So I can predict right now that this idea will never work.
	Would love to see what the UAW worker says when told he/she is paying
	for everybody's healthcare.

	Emergency care is far more expensive than preventive care, yet in
	America the safety net is the emergency system. With more people
	utilizing the ED, which legally is obligated to "stabilize" patients,
	puts undue burdon on hospitals and they close or restrict service.

	  If you do not rehab the infirm, they cease to become producers and
	become consumers. Do you want the US to be a society where there is
	massive amounts of poor people living on the street? Conjures up images
	I have seen of people standing in soup lines or burning wheelbarrows
	full of Marks because it was more useful to heat your house than use at
	the store as currency.

	  My family's Health insurance has increased almost 20% per year for the
	last 5 years. Recently there was a statistic on Yahoo news that less
	than 50% of US households make >40k per year. Private insurance is
	quickly pricing itself out of the market. One of my collegues who is
	working on his PhD shared with me that between 25% and 55% of american's
	are either un or under insured. (depending on how you manipulate the
	stats)  1/4 of Americans unable to pay for their healthcare is a scary
	number. 1/2 even scarier to me. Many of my classmates have expressed
	that private insurance is simply making as much as it can before it no
	longer can sustain itself.(Imagine that, a group paying to put out
	propaganda on how anything other than what is best for them would be
	terrible.) If that turns out to be true, It would mean that one day,
	there would be no place to get insurance from. Or it would be so
	unaffordable only the very top earners (who are less likely to need
	healthcare than the
	 average middleclass or underclass) would be able to afford it.
	Healthcare facilities would close left and right. How about the scenario
	where you make a doc appointment 2 months in advance and have to pay the
	whole thing in cash up front? Because after once or twice your credit
	would be so destroyed from medical bills, you mastercard would be
	rejected by the hospital's verification. If you have never had the
	pleasure of seeing how the underclasses live, a single emergency bill
	can destroy the lives of sometimes 4 generations economically. I dread
	the day I have to see a family watch a loved one die because of a simple
	illness (like a bladder infection) that cannot be treated because of the
	cost of going to the doctor is too much. Do you think the FDA, or boards
	of pharmacy would accept making all medications available without a
	prescription? Never again would you need a pharmacist or a doctor for
	that matter. Just look up what you need online, free at the library then
	go
	 to the corner and buy your meds.

	  I have heard the propaganda for the research card too. Without all the
	cost there would be no new research. Of course all the countries that
	are opening up research labs because of the low cost as well as talented
	help as well as lower legal/ethical obstacles for research would be very
	upset to hear that.

	  What about the quality of care in the US according to the WHO list? we
	spend the most and the last I heard we were as low as 30-47 on the list
	of industrialized nations in health of societies. There is a number to
	be proud of.

	  So it is only a matter of time before our system totally collapses. It
	seems to me the only alternative is a socialized healthcare, paid for by
	a Value Added Tax on consumers. Because of the aging population,
	consumers will outnumber producers for the forseeable future.  I didn't
	come up with the theory of VAT, but lets face it, the Europeans and
	Canadians have figured something out. (charging consumers rather than
	just producers) Is this surprising considering to them healthcare is a
	value of society that trumps individual gain. JFK thought that was a
	good concept, "....what you can do for your country." Of course it might
	mean that the amount of electronic goodies we have may need to decrease
	or that $4 for a cup of coffee may be out of the question.

	  Having said all this, I doubt very much the US population is going to
	accept a VAT. I'd bet the farm everyone will lose their desire for
	healthcare at the mention of it. From AARP to Public Assistance groups.
	The whole fixed income vs. rising price issue.

	  I don't believe for a second there is a capable politician in the US,
	from any party, that has the strength of will or courage to impose this
	without bending to public antimosity to it and winding up with a half
	measure that is just as bad. I also agree 100% that the current way
	things are done by the US gov. that the system would be anything less
	than a bureaucracy that is diffiucult if not impossible to navigate for
	the average person resulting in the same fine care our veterns' have
	been treated to.

	  In light of all this, I follow the best safety tip I ever heard. "Make
	sure you have an out." So when it all comes crashing down, I'll be
	earning Pounds or Euro. Not that I am unpatriotic, just that I don't
	want to be standing in unemployement with a bunch of other healthcare
	workers trying to figure out how to pay for my next meal, much less next
	visit to the doctor or prescription.

	  Sincerest respects,
	  Mike

	Richard Wigle MD FACS <rlwigle at yahoo.com> wrote:  You'd rather have a
	system run by the "people who know it
	best" the insurance CEOs??

	--- bensonblues at comcast.net wrote:

	> The government-run VA system is a mess, as Michael Moore
	> has pointed out in his last "documentary". So, now he
	> (and a good segment of America) wants to make all health
	> care in the US government-run as well? This does not
	> compute, Will Robinson.
	> --
	> trauma-list : TRAUMA.ORG
	> To change your settings or unsubscribe visit:
	> http://www.trauma.org/index.php?/community/
	>

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