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Fri Nov 16 22:07:32 GMT 2007

Sure, wouldn't want anybody to wear out their delete key.

Remember the good old days when we had killfiles??

Jane

	-----Original Message----- 
	From: trauma-list-bounces at trauma.org on behalf of Roy Danks 
	Sent: Fri 11/16/2007 3:43 PM 
	To: Trauma &amp; Critical Care mailing list 
	Cc: 
	Subject: RE: Veterans Without Healthacare

	couldn't you all find some other blog for this blather?  It's long since past the topic of trauma.  Tired of emptying my inbox....And don't get me wrong.  I am 100% pro veteran.  But this thread isn't on that subject anymore.

	> Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 14:24:57 -0600> From: M.Jane.Harper at osfhealthcare.org> To: trauma-list at trauma.org> Subject: RE: Veterans Without Healthacare> > LOL since we learned to duck and cover in grade school! And learned who> Joe McCarthy was ...> > It's written over the door to the National Archives, those who do not> learn from the past are doomed to repeat it. I think we CAN prevent> this, but not until we recognize it's possible. > > Index of suspicion, nu?> > Jane> > -----Original Message-----> From: trauma-list-bounces at trauma.org> [mailto:trauma-list-bounces at trauma.org] On Behalf Of Ronald Gross> Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 2:01 PM> To: Trauma &amp; Critical Care mailing list> Subject: RE: Veterans Without Healthacare> > So tell me Jane - just how long have you been wearing those rose-colored> glasses?> > >>> "Harper, M Jane" <M.Jane.Harper at osfhealthcare.org> 11/16/2007 2:12> PM >>>> The scariest part, to me, about Mike's scenario is the vision of soup> lines and burning mark notes ... we know what happened in Germany after> THAT. Don't tell yourself it couldn't happen in the US. The difference> is that when fascism comes to America, wrapped in the American flag and> carrying a cross and a Bible, it will be armed with nukes and biological> weapons. And then, earning Euros won't protect you from the raining> death.> > ----------------------> Jane Harper, PhD(c), RN, ACNP, CCNS, CCRN> Trauma Advanced Practice Nurse> OSF St. Anthony Medical Center> Rockford, IL> 815-227-2539 or pager 548> m.jane.harper at osfhealthcare.org > > -----Original Message-----> From: trauma-list-bounces at trauma.org > [mailto:trauma-list-bounces at trauma.org] On Behalf Of Mike Smertka> Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 1:04 PM> To: Trauma &amp, Critical Care mailing list> Subject: Re: Veterans Without Healthacare> > ----The government-run VA system is a mess, as Michael Moore has pointed> out in his last "documentary". > > Liberal though I may be, I certainly would not use Michael Moore as a> source for anything except entertainment. > -------So, now he (and a good segment of America) wants to make all> health care in the US government-run as well? This does not compute,> Will Robinson.> > Here are a couple of points I see:> > A good segment of America has the political will to change the current> system. The current healthcare system in America from trauma to medicare> is a total failure. The idea of employer paid systems puts undue legacy> costs on companies driving up the cost of products, driving down demand,> and reducing the number of total workers. > > A system where "everyone" pays, the mythical single payer system,> means only the producers of society pay, afterall if it is deducted from> your paycheck, you have to actually get a paycheck to deduct from.> Currently the amount of consumers in society in the US far outstrips the> producers. So I can predict right now that this idea will never work.> Would love to see what the UAW worker says when told he/she is paying> for everybody's healthcare.> > Emergency care is far more expensive than preventive care, yet in> America the safety net is the emergency system. With more people> utilizing the ED, which legally is obligated to "stabilize" patients,> puts undue burdon on hospitals and they close or restrict service.> > If you do not rehab the infirm, they cease to become producers and> become consumers. Do you want the US to be a society where there is> massive amounts of poor people living on the street? Conjures up images> I have seen of people standing in soup lines or burning wheelbarrows> full of Marks because it was more useful to heat your house than use at> the store as currency.> > My family's Health insurance has increased almost 20% per year for the> last 5 years. Recently there was a statistic on Yahoo news that less> than 50% of US households make >40k per year. Private insurance is> quickly pricing itself out of the market. One of my collegues who is> working on his PhD shared with me that between 25% and 55% of american's> are either un or under insured. (depending on how you manipulate the> stats) 1/4 of Americans unable to pay for their healthcare is a scary> number. 1/2 even scarier to me. Many of my classmates have expressed> that private insurance is simply making as much as it can before it no> longer can sustain itself.(Imagine that, a group paying to put out> propaganda on how anything other than what is best for them would be> terrible.) If that turns out to be true, It would mean that one day,> there would be no place to get insurance from. Or it would be so> unaffordable only the very top earners (who are less likely to need> healthcare than the> average middleclass or underclass) would be able to afford it.> Healthcare facilities would close left and right. How about the scenario> where you make a doc appointment 2 months in advance and have to pay the> whole thing in cash up front? Because after once or twice your credit> would be so destroyed from medical bills, you mastercard would be> rejected by the hospital's verification. If you have never had the> pleasure of seeing how the underclasses live, a single emergency bill> can destroy the lives of sometimes 4 generations economically. I dread> the day I have to see a family watch a loved one die because of a simple> illness (like a bladder infection) that cannot be treated because of the> cost of going to the doctor is too much. Do you think the FDA, or boards> of pharmacy would accept making all medications available without a> prescription? Never again would you need a pharmacist or a doctor for> that matter. Just look up what you need online, free at the library then> go> to the corner and buy your meds.> > I have heard the propaganda for the research card too. Without all the> cost there would be no new research. Of course all the countries that> are opening up research labs because of the low cost as well as talented> help as well as lower legal/ethical obstacles for research would be very> upset to hear that.> > What about the quality of care in the US according to the WHO list? we> spend the most and the last I heard we were as low as 30-47 on the list> of industrialized nations in health of societies. There is a number to> be proud of.> > So it is only a matter of time before our system totally collapses. It> seems to me the only alternative is a socialized healthcare, paid for by> a Value Added Tax on consumers. Because of the aging population,> consumers will outnumber producers for the forseeable future. I didn't> come up with the theory of VAT, but lets face it, the Europeans and> Canadians have figured something out. (charging consumers rather than> just producers) Is this surprising considering to them healthcare is a> value of society that trumps individual gain. JFK thought that was a> good concept, "....what you can do for your country." Of course it might> mean that the amount of electronic goodies we have may need to decrease> or that $4 for a cup of coffee may be out of the question.> > Having said all this, I doubt very much the US population is going to> accept a VAT. I'd bet the farm everyone will lose their desire for> healthcare at the mention of it. From AARP to Public Assistance groups.> The whole fixed income vs. rising price issue. > > I don't believe for a second there is a capable politician in the US,> from any party, that has the strength of will or courage to impose this> without bending to public antimosity to it and winding up with a half> measure that is just as bad. I also agree 100% that the current way> things are done by the US gov. that the system would be anything less> than a bureaucracy that is diffiucult if not impossible to navigate for> the average person resulting in the same fine care our veterns' have> been treated to. > > In light of all this, I follow the best safety tip I ever heard. "Make> sure you have an out." So when it all comes crashing down, I'll be> earning Pounds or Euro. Not that I am unpatriotic, just that I don't> want to be standing in unemployement with a bunch of other healthcare> workers trying to figure out how to pay for my next meal, much less next> visit to the doctor or prescription. > > > Sincerest respects,> Mike> > > > Richard Wigle MD FACS <rlwigle at yahoo.com> wrote: You'd rather have a> system run by the "people who know it> best" the insurance CEOs??> > --- bensonblues at comcast.net wrote:> > > The government-run VA system is a mess, as Michael Moore> > has pointed out in his last "documentary". So, now he> > (and a good segment of America) wants to make all health> > care in the US government-run as well? This does not> > compute, Will Robinson.> > --> > trauma-list : TRAUMA.ORG> > To change your settings or unsubscribe visit:> > http://www.trauma.org/index.php?/community/ > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________> ____________> Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you > with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now.> http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ > --> trauma-list : TRAUMA.ORG> To change your settings or unsubscribe visit:> http://www.trauma.org/index.php?/community/ > > > > ---------------------------------> Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See> how.> --> trauma-list : TRAUMA.ORG> To change your settings or unsubscribe visit:> http://www.trauma.org/index.php?/community/ > > > > > ========================================================================> ======> The information in this message is confidential and may be legally> privileged. Access to this message by anyone other than the addressee is> not authorized. If you are not the intended recipient, or an agent of> the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, or distribution of the> message or any action or omission taken by you in reliance on it, is> prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this message in> error, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the> original e-mail, attachment(s), and any copies.> ========================================================================> ======> > --> trauma-list : TRAUMA.ORG> To change your settings or unsubscribe visit:> http://www.trauma.org/index.php?/community/> --> trauma-list : TRAUMA.ORG> To change your settings or unsubscribe visit:> http://www.trauma.org/index.php?/community/> > > > > --> trauma-list : TRAUMA.ORG> To change your settings or unsubscribe visit:> http://www.trauma.org/index.php?/community/
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