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Fri Feb 2 03:31:11 GMT 2007

Yes, a number of times. These are not patients seen in the acute ward,
but those who end up in the chronic pain clinic because of severe
ongoing neuropathic pain due to injury to an intercostal nerve. It's a
recognised complication of insertion of chest drains, or for that matter
thoracotomy. I can't quote exact figures but anyone on the list with a
particular interest in chronic pain will.

A thoracic surgeon I anaesthetise for occasionally has a collection of
these patients - I have met some of them when they come for their
periodic intercostal blocks under "sedation" ie two minute propofol GA.

Neuropathic pain as a complication of a procedure is acceptable if the
procedure was necessary, but is not acceptable if the procedure was not
indicated in the first place.

Ian

>>> thoracicsurgpa at msn.com 2/02/2007 2:00pm >>>
Ian

Have you ever encountered "iatrogenic neuropraxia (complex chest wall
pain syndrome)" from 
a chest tube??  If so, please elaborate.  

Thanks in advance.

~doug~

  No place for a chest drain in a small pneumothorax which is only
  detected on CT, not clinically or on CXR. Even in a ventilated
patient.
  Even for anaesthesia (so I'm a bit more hard line than you, Peter).
Just
  avoid nitrous oxide and remain 'aware' - if the patient goes off you
  know exactly what the problem is and what to do about it.

  In years gone by, before mindless CT scanning of everything that
moved,
  there must have been plenty of patients with unrecognised little
  pneumothoraces and very few got into any sort of trouble.

  Hard to convince junior surgical trainees of that, or of how
horrible
  an iatrogenic neuropraxia (complex chest wall pain syndrome) or
  iatrogenic empyema can be.

  Cheers, Ian

  Ian Seppelt FANZCA FJFICM
  Senior Staff Specialist
  Dept of Intensive Care Medicine
  The Nepean Hospital, PO Box 63 Penrith NSW 2751
  Clinical Lecturer, University of Sydney

  >>> Peter_Clark at wsahs.nsw.gov.au<mailto:Peter_Clark at wsahs.nsw.gov.au>
1/02/2007 4:38pm >>>

  Excellent question. Lets make it harder - you see no pneumo on CXR
but
  is visible on CT and patient is on a ventilator (IPPV) with
contusion
  on
  CT head.
  Should you put a drain in with complications associated with it
which
  are often forgotten?

  In general we have not put a drain in if patients stays in ICU and
is
  closely observed for changes in airway pressure, resp deterioration
in
  RR or oxygenation or ABG, change in CXR. 
  If pneumo gets bigger obviously needs a drain. If goes to OR/Angio
  etc.
  and access to chest is problem prophylactic drain needed.

  Interested what others think

  P

  >>> shebrain1 at yahoo.com<mailto:shebrain1 at yahoo.com> 31/01/2007 1:45
am >>>
  17 yom, driver, seatbelted, involved in a slow T-bone injury while
  making a turn.
  at scene, c/o loss of cons for few secs. while en-route to hospital
by
  EMS, he c/o SOB. EMS team placed drain (Heimlick valve), no gush of
  air.
  in ER c/o left lower ribs tenderness .stable vitals other than Some
  abrasions in legs, and nasal lac.
  CXR showed small Apical PTX. 1-1.5cm strip. Was this traumatic from
  the
  accident vs by EMS team???
  the drain was d/cd. CT scan of chest showed small anterior and
  mediastinal PTX. no other injuries on CT abd/pelvis.
  pt is sat 100% RA.
  pt was admitted with 100% non-rebreather, CXR F/U (in 4hs no changes
  in
  PTX, in 12hours no changes in PTX, in 16h there is increased PTX to
  40-50%).

  few Questions:
  1.Should I put chest tube immediately even if his PTX was 5-10%
  without
  any changes in his sat.
  2.my understanding, pt with blunt trauma to chest, if they do not
have
  PTX on initial presentation, they should be followed by CXR to r/o
  occult PTX that might declare itself.
  3.as this M&M case now, was the initial plan;[ admit, observe, CXR
and
  if PTX put chest tube] completely wrong?
  4. when can I observe pt with small PTX?

  Thank you

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