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Mon Apr 23 20:21:31 BST 2007

It doesn't matter whether or not guns or people kill. The facts are that:

1) there are approximately 250 million civilian-owned weapons in the U.S. It is flat out impossible to collect them without enforcing a police state. Ergo the only people who would turn them in would be those least likely to use them illegally (this in fact MAY have stopped the VT shootings if it made it too hard for the killer to buy a weapon -- although doubtfull, there is NO way you're going to outlaw sporting long guns which would be just as useful for a mass shooting, not even England has eliminated the shotgun). It would do nothing to prevent the vast majority of shootings in the US which are illegal use of already illegal weapons. If you don't think that there would be massive passive and active resistance to this move among legal gun owners you need to google the saying "Molon Labe".

2) There is a federal right to keep and bear them (as the DC court of appeals just affirmed and as is likely to go to the Supreme Court and be re-affirmed). It was important enough to be placed #2 (right behind speech, press, religion, association). It should be mentioned that despite some people's vehemence at others not being able to read a simple comma-separated sentence that when a legal sentence is of the form "Because of X, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." it doesn't matter what x says, it's merely justification for the declarative in the second part. It could say because the sky is green or because George Washington likes target shooting, doesn't matter, as has been found before by a number of courts. Also "the people" are mentioned innumerable times in the Constitution, in every instance this has been interpreted to mean individual rights, not state or collective rights. 

3) The only way to overcome #2 is to pass a federal amendment. Not gonna happen, ever. The only chance for this was lost when the North made the South re-join the Union (They could have passed the amendment and THEN fought the war I guess but remember that Grant didn't even disarm the Confederacy when he won. I imagine that if he tried Lee might have let his generals fight the guerrilla war that they wanted.). 

Forget emotional, Tom. Pret just is rational (Ha! bet you never saw that coming) and frustrated that others don't agree so that he can get an amendment passed.

Bill Bromberg

>>> "Thomas Anthony Horan" <thoran at sarah.br> 4/23/2007 12:06 PM >>>
Pret 

You are emotional. 

Only time will tell if the debate has been a waste of time or not.  What you are suggesting is that  those of us against the war  or guns on the street should just shut up and let civil and international  war continue until every one is bled out. My advice is suck it up, take a break, go for a run, sample a good wine, use your delete key but don't tell others to shut up. I live in one of the world´s most violent gun and drug laden societies, silence is no option.

I agree with Krin let the drugs flow;  after a decade or so when the drug giants like Reynolds tobacco, Novartis, SKF, Bayer etc have bought all the rights to the trade, start to  tax them like cigarrettes, and in the mean time collect all the guns.

Simplistically yours

Tom 

> ----------
> From: 	trauma-list-bounces at trauma.org[SMTP:trauma-list-bounces at trauma.org] on behalf of Bjorn, Pret[SMTP:pbjorn at emh.org] 
> Reply To: 	Trauma &amp; Critical Care mailing list
> Sent: 	segunda-feira, 23 de abril de 2007 10:52
> To: 	Trauma &amp; Critical Care mailing list
> Subject: 	RE: Australia and Gun control...
> 
> Nonsense.  This is like saying we need to send more troops and cash and
> contractors to Iraq because there's a war on.
> 
> The sooner we all admit that we're accomplishing zilch, the sooner we
> can turn our attention to helping each other with soluble problems, and
> becoming less ornery in the bargain.
> 
> Pret
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: trauma-list-bounces at trauma.org 
> [mailto:trauma-list-bounces at trauma.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Anthony
> Horan
> Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 9:30 AM
> To: Trauma &amp; Critical Care mailing list
> Subject: RE: Australia and Gun control...
> 
> Dear Pret,
> 
> The debate is endless frustrating and depressing as you suggest.
> However, it is a neceesary debate, should and must be continued in all
> available venues there being no way to avoid it. To do otherwise will
> support the contiuation of the current diasterous situation in which the
> greatest danger to man is man himself.
> 
> Tom
> 
> 
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Australia and Gun control...