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Mon Apr 9 14:30:12 BST 2007

Very well said.  What is the argument? Do you think that universal
health care means that you have to care for everyone for free.  Have
you been raped by insurance companies for so long that you think that
any new program will mean more patients for no more pay.  Vilify the
poor and assuage your conscience

On 4/9/07, Bjorn, Pret <pbjorn at emh.org> wrote:
> For the love of Christ.  Listen to yourselves.
>
> How easy it is to concoct an upside to poverty, and to fatten the lore of welfare manipulation with tales of widescreen televisions and sports cars, while something like 37 million Americans struggle to feed, clothe, and shelter themselves while for the most part cheating no one, and asking for little or nothing, often to their silent and invisible deaths.
>
> " ...99% of them have a huge entertainment system of some kind.  All of the fancy gadgets included.  Hi-Def surround sound, hi-def flat screen TV and hi-def whatever!... "
>
> This is more than an exaggeration; it's a reprehensibly malevolent lie, clearly penned by someone who hasn't the most remote familiarity with America's honest poor, most of whom work at least as hard as he does: families forced to choose between filling a prescription and paying the rent or buying food; who tolerate their illnesses because they can't afford insurance and going to a doctor would bankrupt them -- or worse, force them into welfare.
>
> How seductively satisfying, the myth that those of us with proper education and good jobs and warm homes and weekly restaurant tabs and hyperactive Netflix accounts are somehow victims of the needy.  How utterly obscene to ignore the corporate welfare shoveled into U.S. energy and pharmaceutical and insurance interests, or our half-trillion-dollar debacle in the desert, while enthusiastically shitting on families of four making under $20k per year.
>
> Let's use the crackhead with the Playstation to quantify the creeping failure of our civilization.
>
> How can we not be sick of ourselves?
>
> Pret Bjorn, RN
> Bangor, ME USA
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: trauma-list-bounces at trauma.org [mailto:trauma-list-bounces at trauma.org] On Behalf Of RWolfer at aol.com
> Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 8:55 PM
> To: trauma-list at trauma.org
> Subject: Re: [ccm-l] Employment and benefits manipulations
>
>
> In a message dated 4/8/2007 11:42:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> medic541 at hotmail.com writes:
>
> I have  to agree with some of the posts with Dr. Mattox  For many years now I
>
> have gone into some of the sate funded housing for people that cannot pay
> for housing themselves.  No matter who you talk to whether it would  be a
> Firefighter, Paramedic or police officer the one thing that all agree  on is
> that upon entering the homes of such people is 99% of them have a  huge
> entertainment system of some kind.  All of the fancy gadgets  included.
> Hi-Def surround sound, hi-def flat screen TV and hi-def  whatever!  Upon
> transporting such individuals the first thing that  they present is the State
> funded health card.  ( I.E medicare or in  Massachusetts Medicaid.)
> We, the hard working tax payers, pay  for all of there leisure and time
> off.  If you collect all of this  free care free this and free that what
> incentive do you really need to  have to get off of public assistance?
> Public assistance has become a  way of life for some.  Not a way out as is
> was intended to be. You  have to admit, Dr. Mattox has some valid points.
> Anthony Caruso  EMT-P
> Natick, Massachusetts.
>
>
> >From: "Ronald Gross"  <Rgross at harthosp.org>
> >Reply-To: "Trauma &amp; Critical Care  mailing list"
> ><trauma-list at trauma.org>
> >To: "Trauma  &amp; Critical Care mailing list"  <trauma-list at trauma.org>
> >Subject: RE: [ccm-l] Employment and  benefits manipulations
> >Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 13:38:02  -0400
> >
> >Actually in that case hypocritical would be the term, not  cynical.  I
> >hold those upscale hypocrites in the same light as all  the others who
> >want to take everything from everyone and give nothing  to anyone.
> >
> > >>> "Offner, Patrick"  <PatrickOffner at Centura.Org> 4/6/2007 1:33 PM >>>
> >But  those same upscale individuals DON'T want to pay for their routine
> >and  emergent medical care. In fact, many do not have insurance because
> >they  would rather have a BMW or a large flat screen TV.  Yes--getting
> >cynical.
> >
> >-----Original  Message-----
> >From:  trauma-list-bounces at trauma.org
> >[mailto:trauma-list-bounces at trauma.org]  On Behalf Of Ronald Gross
> >Sent: Friday, April 06, 2007 10:13  AM
> >To: Trauma &amp; Critical Care mailing list
> >Subject: RE:  [ccm-l] Employment and benefits manipulations
> >
> >Lets be real here  - how many of the indigent patients that receive free
> >medical care pay  for their root canals?  In fact, how many actually have
> >any dental  care at all?  None.  They go to the free clinics at the  large
> >city hospitals and get their free dental care (that we all pay  for),
> >while the dentists you talked about continue to serve their  upscale
> >suburban families 3-4 days a week and go to their country homes  the
> >other 3-4 days per week.  Same with the "cosmetic surgeons" or  "sports
> >medicine" ortho guys who do their jobs in nice self-owned and  self-build
> >private clinics and get paid cash by the dentist who blew  out his knee
> >and messed up his nose while skiing at  Vail.
> >
> >Cynical, are we???
> >
> > >>> "Offner,  Patrick" <PatrickOffner at Centura.Org> 4/6/2007 11:47 AM
> >  >>>
> >Yes, but it was easier to justify providing some indigent  care(say 10%)
> >when reimbursement for non-indigent care was reasonable  and
> >appropriate.
> >Now that we have to work 3-10 times as hard to  earn the same income--in
> >the face of inflation and rising malpractice  fees--it seems harder to
> >swallow the "forced" indigent care we have to  provide. It seems that at
> >least 50% of the trauma and emergency general  surgery I see in the ED is
> >uninsured. We still give them excellent care  but it is getting harder to
> >swallow.
> >The dentists somehow seem  to have gotten it right. They get 50-80%
> >reimbursement on the billings  and charge the patient for the rest. And
> >the patients are willing to  pay for the rest. Most dentists that I know
> >only work 3-4 days per  week, rarely take call and make a lot more money
> >than I do. We on the  other hand get about 30-40% of what we bill and are
> >contractually  prevented from balance billing the patient. Moreover, the
> >patients now  EXPECT to get their care for free. Why are they willing to
> >pay for  their root canal but not for their emergency appendectomy or
> >their  elective colon cancer resection?
> >
> >-----Original  Message-----
> >From:  trauma-list-bounces at trauma.org
> >[mailto:trauma-list-bounces at trauma.org]  On Behalf Of Ronald Gross
> >Sent: Friday, April 06, 2007 8:54  AM
> >To: Trauma &amp; Critical Care mailing list
> >Subject: RE:  [ccm-l] Employment and benefits manipulations
> >
> >Tort reform,  insurance company executive salaries, drug company "R&D"
> >costs, etc  - all part of the solution.
> >Not part of the solution - a free lunch and  an excuse for all of the
> >"disenfranchised" whether their condition is  self-imposed or "imposed by
> >others" whoever those "others" might  be......
> >
> > >>> "Offner, Patrick"  <PatrickOffner at Centura.Org> 4/5/2007 6:46 PM >>>
> >Dr.  Mattox,
> >
> >While I agree with you almost 100%--don't you believe  that insurance
> >costs are also out of control--to the point that a lot  of people just
> >cannot afford them. Your "fix" is just the tip of the  iceberg--we also
> >need insurance reform as well as tort reform--it is  all intertwined.
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From:  trauma-list-bounces at trauma.org
> >[mailto:trauma-list-bounces at trauma.org]  On Behalf Of KMATTOX at aol.com
> >
> >Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007  3:01 PM
> >To: trauma-list at trauma.org
> >Subject: Re: [ccm-l]  Employment and benefits manipulations
> >
> >
> >In a message  dated 4/5/2007 3:48:23 P.M. Central Daylight  Time,
> >thoran at sarah.
> >br writes:
> >
> >Of the  30  -40 million US uninsured how many are the fast driving drug
> >addicts,  or  lazy, obese cigarette smokers whom you abhor and how many
> >of  them are ordinary  folks, the people who are apparently easy for  you
> >to dismiss
> >, the
> >working poor, in jobs that need  filling but just donフ》 get paid very
> >well , certainly not enough to  part with 1,200 a month...  maybe the
> >receptionist or the cleaner  or the guy in the parking garage, people who
> >just  do NOT appear  on your radar because they do NOT read a novel a
> >week, do NOT   know the right people, do NOT belong to the right
> >organizations, did  NOT go to  the best schools. Never mind Dr. Crippens
> >friend but  what about the disabled,  the folks in the other car,  the
> >unemployed, the unemployable, good cannon  fo dder but No FREE  LUNCH.
> >Never mind that the free lunches are served up in   corporate board
> >rooms every where, provided by the moms and pops  investing in  the great
> >enterprises that won't provide  health  insurance.
> >
> >
> >
> >In every society, and  especially at the local level, provisions are
> >made  for
> >the  kind of persons you cite above.   Many local good examples   exist.
> >
> >
> >These same individuals do not have state  sponsored lawyer  aid, housing
> >aid,
> >church aid, food aid,  family counseling, cell phones,  etc.   Why must
> >or  should
> >health care be any different.    MANY MANY of the  persons you cite
> >above CHOOSE
> >to not have health dollars   available in order to pay for cell phones,
> >send money back to family in  another  country, have a late model car,
> >drink alcohol every day,  go to cock fights, and  have somewhat expensive
> >watches and  designer
> >glasses.   I see them  every day, and then they  expect FREE medical
> >care.
> >WRONG.  One  cannot have it  both ways.    If they go to church, the
> >priest
> >EXPECTS  them to put something in the collection plate and even pay for
> >some of  their absolution by giving to the church (up to and greater than
> >10% of  their
> >income).   If they need to go to court, they must pay  for an
> >attorney.
> >
> >
> >I have NO problem for fairness  with a prorated calculation of a
> >discounted bill based on disability,  inability to work (real, and not
> >just a matter of a created social  welfare state to pay someone NOT to
> >work), and a feeling of  responsibility for ones own services, whatever
> >they might be.  It  is not  the state or the employers responsibility to
> >assure that  everyone is provided  all creature comforts from the cradle
> >to the  grave.  That is a family and  an individual responsibility.   The
> >governmental responsibility is to  protect,  NOT
> >PROVIDE.
> >
> >We in every society MUST also address the  HUGE profits from insurance
> >companies, HMOs, and hospitals whose  overhead and payments to upper
> >level
> >management and stockholders  are obscene.    The persons who have   been
> >unfairly
> >burdened with the financing of individual health  care has become  the
> >employer, and
> >that is the most unfair  of all  systems.
> >
> >Kenneth
> >L. Mattox,  MD
> >Houston
> >
> >
> >
> >**************************************  See what's free at
> >http://www.aol.com.
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> _________________________________________________________________
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>
>
> Ithink that this was intended to be a way of "getting folks thru" but is  now
> a way of life.  We have become a society of entitlement and  "I  deserve and
> I need" instead of I worked for this. there are now generations upon
> generations of this.  Some of us were raised to work for what we got and  pay our own
> way.  I think the only way to change this is to stop it and  make people work
> for what they get.  there is plenty of work out there,  cleaning roadsides,
> taking the elderly to appointments ect.  We see traumas  hurt on ATVs or drunk
> driving all the time who are on disabiltiy for whatever  reason.  I think that
> if you can drive a car or ride an ATV you can  work.  there is a job for
> everyone. Heck, McDonalds hires folks with Downs  all the time.  They are often the
> hardest workers and very proud of the  fact that they have a job and can
> contribute.  I think if you get welfare  or medicare you need to do something for
> it. You dont get something for  nothing.  Unfortunately we need to change
> generations of thinking.  We  are , as a country and as individuals, going broke
> working so that others can  sit around and do nothing.  Some of them drive
> better cars and have better  TVs ect than those of us that work our tails off.
>
> RW
>
>
>
> ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
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-- 
V/R

Forrest Robleto
R House Health & Safety
www.RHouseTraining.com
FRobleto at RhouseTraining.com
609-792-9047

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[ccm-l] Employment and benefits manipulations