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Bali Bombings

Ronald Gross Rgross at harthosp.org
Mon Oct 10 13:30:24 BST 2005

"Our success is to to aleinate all muslims......"
"The administration has long since given up on Osama, on Iraq, on arms control , on freedom, civil liberities and honesty"
"I am amazed that an otherwise inrelligent human being"............

Dr. Horan,

Please help me to understand exactly what world you are living in.  As I read yet another of your prejudicially based biased rants I find myself amazed that there are still folks out there that will look at the world in terms of black and white, and fail to see the greys.  
As I see it (and clearly in your eyes it is I who is blind), no one has chosen to alienate all Muslims, rather we have taken the war to those Muslims that have decided that terror and the killing of innocent people is the best was to achieve the irradication of the "Infidels" so as to achieve world domination by thier religion.  And I would remind you that the vast majority of reasonable and 21st century Muslims would agree that every person is entitled to his/her own believes, and those beliefs pose no threat to those who believe differently - and even the vast majority of the Iraqi population would agree with that!

As far as an "aggressive/pre-emptive war", I would suggest that you pull you head out of the sand ( I MUST remain polite here....) and look at the number of times the world population ahs flown planes into large buildings, or explosive laden cars into large conglomerations of people.  

Wake up man; each of your posts seems to push you that much further into the realm of fiction.

I will shut up now, and resume using the "delete" button.  My systolic BP will probably do much better that way........


>>> thoran at sarah.br 10/7/2005 2:22:02 PM >>>
Dear Dr. ERF

You say: "we understand them perfectly well--and are dealing appropriately on that basis"

We do neither. 

Our success is to to aleinate all muslims by making the battle in Iraq against the Sunni population the metafor for a war on terrorism. The administration has long since given up on Osama, on Iraq, on arms control , on freedom, civil liberities and honesty while desperately trying to find a temporay solution to avoid defeat in 2006 congressional elections.

I am amazed that an otherwise inrelligent human being continues to consider agressive/preemptive war an appropriate basis for solving political problems. 

> ----------
> From: 	docrickfry at aol.com[SMTP:docrickfry at aol.com] 
> Reply To: 	Trauma & Critical Care mailing list
> Sent: 	sexta-feira, 7 de outubro de 2005 10:37
> To: 	trauma-list at trauma.org 
> Subject: 	Re: Bali Bombings
> You apparently have missed my point--we understand them perfectly well--and are dealing appropriately on that basis--someone points a gun to your head, the first thing you want to do is understand them? I think the action is perfectly understandable all on its own.  Understanding the culture and people is perfectly appropriate, and I never disagreed with that--but the people over there and these murderers are two different things.  Kind of like someone over there looking at Charles Manson as being the stereoptype of America--understanding him and understanding us are quite different from one another.   Well, OK, each to his own.....I do hope you are not about to try to make the point that YOUR opinion above is somehow the RIGHT one, are you?  Because that is the impression I get....
> ERF 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bjorn, Pret <pbjorn at emh.org>
> To: 'Trauma & Critical Care mailing list' <trauma-list at trauma.org>
> Sent: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 09:17:13 -0400 
> Subject: RE: Bali Bombings
> Rick,
> Congratulations on a nearly impossible feat of marksmanship: you have so
> thoroughly missed the point that you've hit yourself in the back of the
> head.  
> Whether or not you want to, understanding the enemy is the best way to
> disarm him.  We've tried righteous ignorance, blustery rhetoric, and brute
> force.  A lot of freaking good it's done.
> --
> Your feelings are understandable:  I'm doubtful that many of us can
> effectively imagine the world reversed, wherein the largest economies,
> industries, militaries, and media mechanisms of the world are middle eastern
> (read: Islamic); where, for generations, you and I have lived in abject
> poverty under gilded regimes of repression -- funded, armed, informed, and
> overtly controlled by middle eastern powers.  
> The largest and most influential of these nations (pick one) flies a banner
> of peace and freedom, but its actions over hundreds of years have served
> mostly to exploit our resources, enrich our oppressors, and dismiss our
> faith.  Our country may have never been attacked; but our culture, for
> generations, has been under siege.
> We're poor, we're infuriated, we're desperate; but we're not stupid.  An
> organized revolution would be conspicuous and uselessly suicidal: the middle
> east is too wealthy, too well-armed and well-wired.  The most accessible,
> safe and credible retreat is to the Christian churches, which the outsiders
> can't overtly attack without risking their moral self image.  
> We find varying support there, among other impoverished, desperate
> Christians.  Some are especially sympathetic: the Muslim puppet masters
> enrage them, as do the faithless profiteers and sycophants in their very own
> communities.  They share our suffocating sense that the Christian world is
> being subsumed and rebuilt into one where our heritage can't fit, and won't
> survive.  We have no one to rely on but ourselves and each other, nobody to
> trust but other fanatics.> 
> We resolve to fight back using the tools at hand: improvised weapons,
> zealous martyrs fueled by the most primitive commandments of our faith, and
> the ability to scare the shit out of civilian (especially, secular) masses
> around the globe.  
> The only hope of our culture is that terror will force reflection,
> hesitation, and withdrawal.  Gradually, as these efforts fail in the face of
> global middle eastern dominance, our objectives distort and simplify: we'll
> kill as many of the Muslim motherf***ers as we can, or die trying.  If
> nothing else, we're politically, financially, and morally bankrupting the
> fools...
> --
> Don't think for a moment that terrorism is a characteristic of any religion,
> fundamentalist or otherwise.  It's a tactic (and a predictable product) of
> desperation.  We'd do it if we had to, and we'd find a way to dignify it.
> Religion's just the most accessible vector.  
> And don't think that I endorse or support these impressions or responses: I
> just know they're out there, and that ignoring them deepens the hole we're
> digging.  Mankind will never be one big happy family.  But if we're lucky,
> we'll find a way to coexist.  Problem is, somebody has to be the first to
> try.
> Pret Bjorn
> -----Original Message-----
> From: docrickfry at aol.com [mailto:docrickfry at aol.com] 
> Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 6:44 PM
> To: trauma-list at trauma.org 
> Subject: Re: Bali Bombings
> Sure----is it not commmon courtesy and tolerance to be respectful of those
> who blow up innocent people to make their own adolescent point as to who's
> beliefs are right?  Perhaps we should all try to understand them a bit more,
> and then we can all be one big happy family--what are a few hundred lives
> per pop compared to understanding and tolerance?
> --
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