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Sat, 25 Jan 2003 09:01:10 +1100

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Despite personally agreeing with Andrew's views, it is always really
good to get different ideas, whether you agree with them or not. Not
that I totally disagree with everything that Pret says, either.
I guess I too am on the far side of being "fouled up" which is why I
have taken a break (and may I say I am having quite a lovely time away
from ED). If people can't handle some vigorous discussion, perhaps they
should remove themselves from the list rather that worrying about those
who have and as Andy said - join twin number one in a warm & fuzzy (if
not a little bizarre) environment.
Sheree

"p.bjorn" wrote:

> Mark & Meredith, I've no doubt that you'd be amazed at how much I've
> held back on this thread.  Surely I have nothing against Andrew; if
> anything, I'm deeply concerned for him, and have expressed as much in
> a very directed message--which Meredith failed to quote from.  Even my
> criticisms were cut from their context: Andrew seems to be an
> intelligent and passionate person, and in all likelihood a fine
> nurse.  I'm certain the sum of my comments have expressed that.  But
> by and large I think most would agree (including, I hope, Andrew) that
> I'm not arguing against him as a person--I'm arguing against his
> assertions, which in my opinion are on the far side of f--... um,
> fouled up. Andrew has been truly magnanimous in at least publicly
> appreciating all sides of this argument, but his agenda from the start
> has been clear: this will never happen again.  It's important for Mark
> to realize that Andrew was never really looking as much for
> information or ideas, but support.  I won't make assumptions as to
> what he's done with my dissenting opinions, but we do know that the
> e-mails which reinforced his position (surely dozens, across several
> list-servers) were put to good use at his hospital. In that context, I
> think it's fair to lean on the silliness--the stark
> indefensibility--of this idea that an emergency is not an emergency if
> the patient has a hospital bracelet on.  If you insist that the sky is
> yellow, I'll give you one chance at blue before I start making fun of
> your glasses.  Sometimes the only way to bring someone to the truth is
> to rip big holes through the fiction. I'm prepared to hear suggestions
> as to how I could have worded things differently and still had any
> impact at all, because it's clear in the end that I didn't have an
> impact--and the most palatable alternative, in retrospect, would have
> been to not enter the discussion.   I do hope the list has room for
> ideas which cannot be discussed in polite whispers. Pret -----
> Original Message -----
>
>      From: MARK FORREST
>      To: trauma-list@trauma.org
>      Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 11:40 PM
>      Subject: Onto my soap-box!
>       Well said Meredith.I am concerned by the sudden flurry of
>      requests to leave this list, which we all normally enjoy so
>      much. Are we seeing as many newcomers??? The odd sharp word
>      or witty repost has always been amusing on the list and
>      should be continued. However, despite Karim's introduction
>      to 2003, over the last month we seem to have spiralled
>      downwards to the depths of insulting 'written ping
>      pong.' Come on guys, we all often agree to differ, but
>      anyone who contributes has at least shown a certain
>      commitment to get on line, read the threads and then to add
>      their considered opinion, be it right or wrong in your eyes.
>      For me this immediately elevates all list members above the
>      masses who simply wish to be spoon fed education or to
>      simply sit back and rely on their out of date concepts and
>      knowledge. Many of us have developed hard shells over the
>      years and comments 'wash over' but more junior and new list
>      members, will never take part or add questions to the list
>      for fear of being struck by a bolt of 'list-lightening'. All
>      list members should have the right to ask questions, many of
>      which will be trivial to some, but if you feel that way then
>      simply don't reply.Senior educators should never shoot-down
>      those who come to question and be educated, so let's put
>      away the knives and talk trauma in friendly terms. Stepping
>      off the soap-box and preparing for incoming
>      fire! RegardsMark F
>
>           ----- Original Message -----
>           From: meredith mcbride
>           To: trauma-list@trauma.org
>           Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 10:29 PM
>           Subject: RE: Intrahospital Transfer
>            These comments and the overall tone of this
>           communication are so unprofessional. Many people
>           are reluctant to post on this list server, and
>           ultimately end up resigning due to the unpleasant,
>           attacking responses they see to member questions
>           and comments. Our trauma community is huge,
>           diverse, and multidisciplinary. It's so
>           counterproductive to the purpose and intent of the
>           list server to dissuade members from having open
>           discussions.
>
>           Please - a plea that we all may practice a little
>           more restraint, a little more dispassionate logic,
>           and a little more kindess and good manners. I do
>           believe that the list and all of our educations
>           will flourish under such an environment.
>
>           regards,
>
>           Meredith McBride, MD
>
>                     You've gone beyond
>                     thoroughness and ventured into
>                     hyperbole and hogwash.
>
>                     Is it legal?  THINK, man!
>                     What could possibly be illegal
>                     about sending an overdose to
>                     an Emergency Department?
>                     You're worried somebody might
>                     sue you?  Spare me.
>                     You depress me.Spoken like a
>                     true, proud, stultifyingly
>                     myopic ED nurse. When did this
>                     go from a transfer to an
>                     influx?  Take a breath,
>                     Andrew.  Enjoy a refreshing
>                     soft drink.Just what kind of a
>                     nurse have you become?
>
>
>                               Legality?
>                               Billing?
>                               Horseshit. Until
>                               then,
>                               treat the
>                               patient
>                               and shut
>                               up.I may
>                               be alone
>                               here, but
>                               I think
>                               you and
>                               all those
>                               who are
>                               cheering
>                               you on
>                               should be
>                               ashamed of
>                               yourselves.Pret
>                               BjornTrauma
>                               CoordinatorEMMC
>                               Trauma
>                               Program489
>                               State
>                               StreetBangor,
>                               ME
>                               04401207.973.7260
>                               (office)207.973.7673
>                               (fax)207.941.5085
>                               (voice
>                               pager)
>
>
>                -----------------------------------------
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>                Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable.
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>
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Despite personally agreeing with Andrew's views, it is always really good
to get different ideas, whether you agree with them or not. Not that I
totally disagree with everything that Pret says, either.
 I guess I too am on the far side of being "fouled up" which is why
I have taken a break (and may I say I am having quite a lovely time away
from ED). If people can't handle some vigorous discussion, perhaps they
should remove themselves from the list rather that worrying about
those who have and as Andy said - join twin number one in a warm &amp;
fuzzy (if not a little bizarre) environment.
 Sheree
"p.bjorn" wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE><style></style>
Mark
&amp; Meredith,&nbsp;I've
no doubt that you'd be amazed at how much I've held back on this
thread.&nbsp; Surely I have nothing against Andrew; if anything, I'm deeply
concerned for him, and have expressed as much in a very directed message--which
Meredith failed to quote from.&nbsp; Even my criticisms were cut from their
context: Andrew seems to be an intelligent and passionate person, and in
all likelihood a fine nurse.&nbsp; I'm certain the sum of my comments have
expressed that.&nbsp; But by and large I think most would agree (including,
I hope, Andrew) that I'm not arguing against him as a person--I'm arguing
against his assertions, which in my opinion are on the far side of f--...
um, fouled up.&nbsp;Andrew
has been truly magnanimous in at least publicly appreciating all sides
of this argument, but his agenda from the start has been clear: this
will never happen again.&nbsp; It's important for Mark to realize that
Andrew was never really looking as much for information or ideas, but support.&nbsp;
I won't make assumptions as to what he's done with my dissenting opinions,
but we do know that the e-mails which reinforced his position (surely dozens,
across several list-servers) were put to good use at his hospital.&nbsp;In
that context, I think it's fair to lean on the silliness--the stark indefensibility--of
this idea that an emergency is not an emergency if the patient has a hospital
bracelet on.&nbsp; If you insist that the sky is yellow, I'll give you
one chance at blue before I start making fun of your glasses.&nbsp; Sometimes
the only way to bring someone to the truth is to rip big holes through
the fiction.&nbsp;I'm
prepared to hear suggestions as to how I could have worded things differently
and still had any impact at all, because it's clear in the end that I didn't
have an impact--and the most palatable alternative, in retrospect, would
have been to not enter the discussion.&nbsp;&nbsp; I do hope the list has
room for ideas which cannot be discussed in polite whispers.&nbsp;Pret&nbsp;-----
Original Message -----
<blockquote dir=ltr 
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<div 
 style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">From:
<a href="mailto:atacc.doc@virgin.net" title=http://www.trauma.org/index.php/community/list/url/http:list.ftech.net/pipermail/trauma-list/2003-January/"atacc.doc@virgin.net">MARK
FORREST</a></div>

<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:trauma-list@trauma.org" title=http://www.trauma.org/index.php/community/list/url/http:list.ftech.net/pipermail/trauma-list/2003-January/"trauma-list@trauma.org">trauma-list@trauma.org</a></div>

<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, January 22, 2003
11:40 PM</div>

<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">Subject: Onto my soap-box!</div>
&nbsp;Well said Meredith.I
am concerned by the sudden flurry of requests to leave this list, which
we all normally enjoy so much. Are we seeing as many newcomers???&nbsp;The
odd sharp word or witty repost has always been amusing on the list and
should be continued. However, despite Karim's introduction to 2003, over
the last month we seem to have spiralled downwards to the depths of insulting
'written ping pong.'&nbsp;Come
on guys, we all often agree to differ, but anyone who contributes has at
least shown a certain commitment to get on line, read the threads and then
to add their considered opinion, be it right or wrong in your eyes. For
me this immediately elevates all list members above the masses who simply
wish to be spoon fed education or to simply sit back and rely on their
out of date concepts and knowledge.&nbsp;Many
of us have developed hard shells over the years and comments 'wash over'
but more junior and new list members, will never take part or add questions
to the list for fear of being struck by a bolt of 'list-lightening'. All
list members should have the right to ask questions, many of which will
be trivial to some, but if you feel that way then simply don't reply.Senior
educators should never shoot-down those who come to question and be educated,
so let's put away the knives and talk trauma in friendly terms.&nbsp;Stepping
off the soap-box and preparing for incoming fire!&nbsp;RegardsMark
F
<blockquote 
 style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----</div>

<div 
    style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><b>From:</b>
<a href="mailto:mmcbridemd@yahoo.com" title=http://www.trauma.org/index.php/community/list/url/http:list.ftech.net/pipermail/trauma-list/2003-January/"mmcbridemd@yahoo.com">meredith
mcbride</a></div>

<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:trauma-list@trauma.org" title=http://www.trauma.org/index.php/community/list/url/http:list.ftech.net/pipermail/trauma-list/2003-January/"trauma-list@trauma.org">trauma-list@trauma.org</a></div>

<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, January 22, 2003
10:29 PM</div>

<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> RE: Intrahospital Transfer</div>
&nbsp;<span 
    class=630523119-21012003><font face="Arial"><font color="#800000"><font size=-1>These
comments and the overall tone of this communication are so unprofessional.
Many people are reluctant to post on this list server, and ultimately end
up resigning due to the unpleasant, attacking responses they see to member
questions and comments. Our trauma community is huge, diverse, and multidisciplinary.
It's so counterproductive to the purpose and intent of the list server
to dissuade members from having open discussions.</font></font></font></span>
<p><span 
    class=630523119-21012003><font face="Arial"><font color="#800000"><font size=-1>Please
- a plea that we all may practice a little more restraint, a little more
dispassionate logic, and a little more kindess and good manners. I do believe
that the list and all of our educations will flourish under such an environment.</font></font></font></span>
<p><span 
    class=630523119-21012003><font face="Arial"><font color="#800000"><font size=-1>regards,</font></font></font></span>
<p><span 
    class=630523119-21012003><font face="Arial"><font color="#800000"><font size=-1>Meredith
McBride, MD</font></font></font></span>
<p><span 
    class=630523119-21012003></span>
<blockquote 
    style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">
<blockquote 
      style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"><span 
        class=630523119-21012003>
<p><span 
        class=630523119-21012003><font face="Arial"><font color="#800000"><font size=-1>You've
gone beyond thoroughness and ventured into hyperbole and hogwash.&nbsp;</font></font></font></span>
<p><span 
        class=630523119-21012003></span><span class=630523119-21012003><font face="Arial"><font color="#800000"><font size=-1>Is
it <i>legal</i>?&nbsp; THINK, man!&nbsp; What could <i>possibly </i>be
illegal about sending an overdose to an Emergency Department?&nbsp; You're
worried somebody might <i>sue </i>you?&nbsp; Spare me.</font></font></font></span>
<br></span><span 
        class=630523119-21012003></span><span 
        class=630523119-21012003><font face="Arial"><font color="#800000"><font size=-1>You
depress me.</font></font></font></span><span 
        class=630523119-21012003></span><span 
        class=630523119-21012003></span><span class=630523119-21012003><font face="Arial"><font color="#800000"><font size=-1>Spoken
like a true, proud, stultifyingly myopic ED nurse.&nbsp;</font></font></font></span><span 
        class=630523119-21012003></span><span 
        class=630523119-21012003><font face="Arial"><font color="#800000"><font size=-1>When
did this go from a transfer to an <i>influx</i>?&nbsp; Take a breath, Andrew.&nbsp;
Enjoy a refreshing soft drink.</font></font></font></span><span 
        class=630523119-21012003></span><span 
        class=630523119-21012003><font face="Arial"><font color="#800000"><font size=-1>Just
what kind of a nurse have you become?</font></font></font></span><span 
        class=630523119-21012003></span>
<blockquote dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<blockquote dir=ltr 
          style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><span 
            class=700525517-21012003></span></div>
<span 
            class=700525517-21012003></span>&nbsp;<span 
            class=700525517-21012003><font face="Arial"><font color="#800000"><font size=-1><i>Legality?&nbsp;
Billing?&nbsp; </i>Horseshit.&nbsp;</font></font></font></span><span 
            class=700525517-21012003></span><span 
            class=700525517-21012003><font face="Arial"><font color="#800000"><font size=-1>Until
then, treat the patient and shut up.</font></font></font></span><span 
            class=700525517-21012003></span><span 
            class=700525517-21012003><font face="Arial"><font color="#800000"><font size=-1>I
may be alone here, but I think you and all those who are cheering you on
should be ashamed of yourselves.</font></font></font></span><span 
            class=700525517-21012003></span><span 
            class=700525517-21012003><span 
            class=030133519-19052000><font face="Arial"><font color="#800000"><font size=-1>Pret
Bjorn</font></font></font></span><span 
            class=030133519-19052000><font face="Arial"><font color="#800000"><font size=-1>Trauma
Coordinator</font></font></font></span><span 
            class=030133519-19052000><font face="Arial"><font color="#800000"><font size=-1>EMMC
Trauma Program</font></font></font></span><span 
            class=030133519-19052000><font face="Arial"><font color="#800000"><font size=-1>489
State Street</font></font></font></span><span 
            class=030133519-19052000><font face="Arial"><font color="#800000"><font size=-1>Bangor,
ME 04401</font></font></font></span><span 
            class=030133519-19052000></span><span 
            class=030133519-19052000><font face="Arial"><font color="#800000"><font size=-1>207.973.7260
(office)</font></font></font></span><span 
            class=030133519-19052000><font face="Arial"><font color="#800000"><font size=-1>207.973.7673
(fax)</font></font></font></span><span 
            class=030133519-19052000><font face="Arial"><font color="#800000"><font size=-1>207.941.5085
(voice pager)</font></font></font></span></span></blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>

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