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Burns analgesia- KETAMINE
Alejandro Cabrera , M.D. trauma-list@trauma.orgSat, 23 Feb 2002 14:08:26 -0600
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C1BC73.8FFA6FE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks, we will consider it because of the hypotension caused by the = opiates. Alejandro Cabrera, M.D. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: John & Rebecca Black=20 To: trauma-list@trauma.org=20 Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2002 5:03 AM Subject: Burns analgesia- KETAMINE Alejandro, The agent that I would strongly urge you all to consider using in the = situation you describe is an analgesic dose of ketamine (0.1 - 0.5mg/kg) = mg . It is immensely valuable in the prehospital phase of patient's care = and, unlike morphine, is probably the analgesic agent of choice if your = patient also has a significant volume issue. Low dose midazolam may be = added to reduce the risk or emergence dysphoria in less serious burns. If the patient requires a definitive airway, and/or aeromedical = evacuation is being considered, ketamine (1- 4mg/kg IV or IM) is also an = extremely attractive induction agent. John Black Consultant Emergency Medicine John Radcliffe Hospital Oxford UK Message: 9 From: "Timothy J Coats" <t.j.coats@qmul.ac.uk> Organization: MDS QMW To: trauma-list@trauma.org Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 08:50:31 BST Subject: Re: Burn patients. Reply-To: trauma-list@trauma.org Alejandro, Standard pain control would be to cover burns with clingfilm (=3Dsaranwrap in the USA I think) to prevent air movement over them, plus large doses of opiates (morphine) as part of balanced = anaesthesia. Not sure about flying out the patient you describe - maybe terminal care by a local physician near to home with easy access for relatives would be nicer. However, I guess the local docs may not feel that they can cope with this. Tim. Timothy J Coats MD FRCS FFAEM Senior Lecturer in Accident and Emergency / Pre-Hospital Care Royal London Hospital, UK. -----Original Message----- From: Avi Roy Shapira [mailto:avir@bgumail.bgu.ac.il] Sent: Friday, February 22, 2002 2:00 PM To: trauma-list@trauma.org Subject: Re: Burn patients. Give iv morphine. My practice is to dilute 10 mg in 9 ml of saline, in = a 10 ml syringe, give 3-5 iv push, and then add mg by mg until pain = free. Repeat as needed. Avi On Thu, 21 Feb 2002, Alejandro Cabrera , M.D. wrote: > Hy: > We've been flying a few patients with 90%(+) BSP burns of second and = third > degree, and, some bettween 50 and 90% and I was wondering which are = your > protocols for pain management obviously they were intubate because = airway > burned , the place where we flew from has no ABG's (little town) , = but one > of them with more than 90% with renal failure, and, coagulopathy. > I know it's not life compatible but we must do the best we can, what = do you > suggest? > Alejandro Cabrera, M.D. > > > > -- > trauma-list : TRAUMA.ORG > To change your settings or unsubscribe visit: > http://www.trauma.org/traumalist.html > = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Aviel Roy-Shapira, M.D. Soroka University Hospital & Dept. of Surgery A. and Ben-Gurion University Medical = School the Critical Care Unit POB 151, Beer Sheva, Israel ----- Original Message ----- From: trauma-list-request@trauma.org Sent: 22 February 2002 21:13 To: trauma-list@trauma.org Subject: trauma-list digest, Vol 1 #1286 - 13 msgs Send trauma-list mailing list submissions to trauma-list@trauma.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://list.ftech.net/mailman/listinfo/trauma-list or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to trauma-list-request@trauma.org You can reach the person managing the list at trauma-list-admin@trauma.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of trauma-list digest..." Today's Topics: 1. v-fib seizure (Vergote Lieven) 2. Re: v-fib seizure (CrnbryEMT@aol.com) 3. RE: ORIGINS OF AVPU (bobby smith) 4. Re: Burn patients. (Avi Roy Shapira) 5. RE: Burn patients. (Bjorn, Pret) 6. Re: PANCREATIC TRAUMA - more info to ICU guys (MARK FORREST) 7. Re: v-fib seizure (Nick Nudell) 8. Re: v-fib seizure (Ian Seppelt) 9. Re: Burn patients. (Timothy J Coats) 10. Tension Pneumothorax (Ian Cross) 11. Re: v-fib seizure (FtLaudALSTeam@aol.com) 12. RE: v-fib seizure (Bjorn, Pret) 13. Re:v-fib (FtLaudALSTeam@aol.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Vergote Lieven <lieven.vergote@asz-aalst.be> To: "'trauma-list@trauma.org'" <trauma-list@trauma.org> Subject: v-fib seizure Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 13:57:16 +0100 Reply-To: trauma-list@trauma.org In my opinion this is a seizure due to cerebral hypoxia in a patient = with CRA. As Always treat the appropriate way: ABCD what you have done --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 08:11:28 EST From: CrnbryEMT@aol.com Subject: Re: v-fib seizure To: <trauma-list@trauma.org> Reply-To: trauma-list@trauma.org "Ouch" for the slam. (Knowing "why" makes me a better medic.) "Thanks" for the defense. (Exactly why I posed the question.) And "Thanks!" for the answers. (It's as I thought, now I know for = sure.) I beleive I stated in my question that I thought v-fib seizures were = due to hypoixa. (v-fib =3D poor perfusion =3D hypoxia) I was simply = wondering if there was another mechanism at work. No, I am not a "cookbook medic" as someone so eloquently put it ... = but my treatment of a patient in v-fib is the same whether they had a = seizure or not! My paramedic course was very progressive and in depth, = however never mentioned v-fib seizures ... I was simply trying to find = if there were evidence to show that an seizure could lead to v-fib. -Greg Clopp, MICP --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 05:49:15 -0800 (PST) From: bobby smith <bobbyrn_2000@yahoo.com> Subject: RE: ORIGINS OF AVPU To: trauma-list@trauma.org Reply-To: trauma-list@trauma.org --0-1499779953-1014385755=3D:4594 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii Pret To better set a time line I was taught AVPU in the late 70's in = prehospital care classes. Bobby "Bjorn, Pret" <pbjorn@emh.org> wrote: Laurie, Thanks very = kindly--this is more than I expected. Sadly, however, my quest = continues. First and foremost, I'm suspicious at the assertion that AVPU = is an ACS invention. I no longer possess a 1993 ATLS Manual (listed = among the references), but if anyone is able to relate to me where it = states anything like "the College has created the AVPU method as a = useful alternative to the Glasgow Coma Scale," I'd be eager to hear = about it. Also, the paper provides an unconvincing argument in favor of = AVPU, at best amplifying its poor sensitivity to describe or recommend = much of anything. Among the highlights of the discussion: "Patients = who are responsive only to a painful stimulus will usually have a GCS of = 8 or less and therefore may be at risk of airway problems." A curious = conclusion, being that 46% of these patients have a GCS of 9 or more... = Strange (perhaps telling) that the investigators spent so much time = collecting numbers, but never subjected them to any real statistical = analysis. Finally, consider the objectives: to associate AVPU with GCS, = presumably because AVPU is easier, and GCS only works with trained = practitioners; however, within the conclusion and discussion, it is = repeatedly suggested that AVPU suffers from a lack of an objective = assessment guideline, and practitioners of AVPU are undertrained. If = you're going to go to all that effort to improve upon a tool which is so = clearly inferior to GCS, why not simply improve the utilization of GCS? = On and on, round and round... Pret ----Original Message----- From: Laurie [mailto:ggh@bentonrea.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2002 9:04 PM To: trauma-list@trauma.org Subject: Fw: ORIGINS OF APUV Dear Pret, Attached you will find the answer to your quest. Laurie = GrimesResearch fiend = http://www.google.com/search?q=3Dcache:KbAYukdct-oC:www.basics.freewire.c= o.uk/Templates/DLMar00/9919.pdf+neurological+assessment+tool+%27APUV%22&h= l=3Den --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games --0-1499779953-1014385755=3D:4594 Content-Type: text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii <P> Pret <P>To better set a time line I was taught AVPU in the late 70's in = prehospital care classes. <P>Bobby <P> <B><I>"Bjorn, Pret" <pbjorn@emh.org></I></B> wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: = 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 = Transitional//EN"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2919.6307" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> <DIV><FONT color=3D#800000 face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN = class=3D980573612-20022002>Laurie,</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#800000 face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN = class=3D980573612-20022002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#800000 face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN = class=3D980573612-20022002>Thanks very kindly--this is more than I = expected. Sadly, however, my quest continues.</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#800000 face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN = class=3D980573612-20022002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#800000 face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN = class=3D980573612-20022002>First and foremost, I'm suspicious at the = assertion that AVPU is an ACS invention. I no longer possess a = 1993 ATLS Manual (listed among the references), but if anyone is able to = relate to me where it states anything like "the College has created the = AVPU method as a useful alternative to the Glasgow Coma Scale," I'd = be eager to hear about it.</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#800000 face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN = class=3D980573612-20022002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#800000 face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN = class=3D980573612-20022002>Also, the paper provides an unconvincing = argument in favor of AVPU, at best amplifying its poor sensitivity to = describe or recommend much of anything. Among the highlights of = the discussion: "<EM>Patients who are responsive only to a painful = stimulus will usually have a GCS of 8 or less and therefore may be at = risk of airway problems</EM>." A curious conclusion, being = that 46% of these patients have a GCS of 9 or more... Strange = (perhaps telling) that the investigators spent so much time collecting = numbers, but never subjected them to any real statistical = analysis.</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#800000 face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN = class=3D980573612-20022002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#800000 face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN = class=3D980573612-20022002>Finally, consider the objectives: to = associate AVPU with GCS, presumably because AVPU is easier, and GCS only = works with trained practitioners; however, within the = conclusion and discussion, it is repeatedly suggested that AVPU = suffers from a lack of an objective assessment guideline, and = practitioners of AVPU are undertrained. If you're going to go to = all that effort to improve upon a tool which is so clearly inferior to = GCS, why not simply improve the utilization of GCS?</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#800000 face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN = class=3D980573612-20022002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#800000 face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN = class=3D980573612-20022002>On and on, round and = round...</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#800000 face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN = class=3D980573612-20022002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#800000 face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN = class=3D980573612-20022002>Pret</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#800000 face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN = class=3D980573612-20022002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#800000 face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN = class=3D980573612-20022002></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DTahoma = size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2>----Original = Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Laurie = [mailto:ggh@bentonrea.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, February 19, 2002 = 9:04 PM<BR><B>To:</B> trauma-list@trauma.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Fw: = ORIGINS OF APUV<BR><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE></FONT> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>Dear Pret,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Attached you will find the answer to your quest. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Laurie Grimes</DIV> <DIV>Research fiend<BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <A = href=http://www.trauma.org/index.php/community/list/url/http:list.ftech.net/pipermail/trauma-list/2002/3D"http://www.google.com/search?q=3Dcache:KbAYukdct-oC:www.basics.fr= eewire.co.uk/Templates/DLMar00/9919.pdf+neurological+assessment+tool+%27A= PUV%22&hl=3Den">http://www.google.com/search?q=3Dcache:KbAYukdct-oC:w= ww.basics.freewire.co.uk/Templates/DLMar00/9919.pdf+neurological+assessme= nt+tool+%27APUV%22&hl=3Den</A> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><p><br><hr = size=3D1><b>Do You Yahoo!?</b><br> <a href=http://www.trauma.org/index.php/community/list/url/http:list.ftech.net/pipermail/trauma-list/2002/3D"http://sports.yahoo.com/oly">Yahoo! Sports</a> - Coverage = of the 2002 Olympic Games --0-1499779953-1014385755=3D:4594-- --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 21:00:09 +0200 (IST) From: Avi Roy Shapira <avir@bgumail.bgu.ac.il> To: trauma-list@trauma.org Subject: Re: Burn patients. Reply-To: trauma-list@trauma.org Give iv morphine. My practice is to dilute 10 mg in 9 ml of saline, = in a 10 ml syringe, give 3-5 iv push, and then add mg by mg until pain = free. Repeat as needed. Avi On Thu, 21 Feb 2002, Alejandro Cabrera , M.D. wrote: > Hy: > We've been flying a few patients with 90%(+) BSP burns of second = and third > degree, and, some bettween 50 and 90% and I was wondering which = are your > protocols for pain management obviously they were intubate because = airway > burned , the place where we flew from has no ABG's (little town) = , but one > of them with more than 90% with renal failure, and, coagulopathy. > I know it's not life compatible but we must do the best we can, = what do you > suggest? > Alejandro Cabrera, M.D. > > > > -- > trauma-list : TRAUMA.ORG > To change your settings or unsubscribe visit: > http://www.trauma.org/traumalist.html > = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Aviel Roy-Shapira, M.D. Soroka University Hospital & Dept. of Surgery A. and Ben-Gurion University Medical = School the Critical Care Unit POB 151, Beer Sheva, Israel email:avir@bgumail.bgu.ac.il Fax:972-7-6403260 = voice:972-7-6403390 --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Bjorn, Pret" <pbjorn@emh.org> To: "'trauma-list@trauma.org'" <trauma-list@trauma.org> Subject: RE: Burn patients. Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 14:08:39 -0500 Reply-To: trauma-list@trauma.org Us too. Morphine. Lots and lots of Morphine. Given by the tens if necessary. Pret Bjorn, RN Bangor, ME USA email:avir@bgumail.bgu.ac.il Fax:972-7-6403260 = voice:972-7-6403390 -- trauma-list : TRAUMA.ORG To change your settings or unsubscribe visit: http://www.trauma.org/traumalist.html --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "MARK FORREST" <atacc.doc@virgin.net> To: <trauma-list@trauma.org> Subject: Re: PANCREATIC TRAUMA - more info to ICU guys Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 00:31:29 -0000 Reply-To: trauma-list@trauma.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=3D_NextPart_000_009C_01C1BB38.454B25C0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=3D"----=3D_NextPart_001_009D_01C1BB38.454B25C0" ------=3D_NextPart_001_009D_01C1BB38.454B25C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Alster, Thank you for the additional info. Both of these patients clearly = had =3D something catastrophic going on in their abdomens. These kind of = numbers =3D are very severe and will have been rising for some time. To me they = =3D clearly indicate major ischaemia, even allowing for ARF, and the = need =3D for urgent laparotomy (which would probably demonstrate =3D ischaemic/infarcted bowel) Although a fan of high flux HF or HDF in sepsis, it will not salvage = =3D patients like this who need surgical intervention. Such renal = therapies =3D merely put the 'brakes' on the numbers and mask the severity of the = =3D condition until it is too late. The second case appears to have developed overwhelming ARDS as a = result =3D of the initial insult, the subsequent abdominal inflammation and =3D possibly overzealous fluid resuscitation in obvious SIRS. In our = unit we =3D firmly believe that the battle is often lost pre-hospital or in = resus =3D where patients are over-filled with resus fluid, before theatre and = more =3D fluid, before blood transfusion and then finally ITU after 10-20 = litres =3D of fluid for an initial true blood loss of maybe 2 litres.....LESS = FLUID =3D IS BEST!?...discuss! Hopefully, as the concept of permissive hypotension, small volume = =3D resuscitation and hypertonics becomes more frequently practised, = then =3D the struggles of the intensivists will be reduced. Evidence base? How can an intensivist prove that the amount of fluid = =3D given at the roadside etc will alter outcome after ? 10 days of ITU = care =3D and all of its therapies and variables? Any more information Alster? Regards Mark F Intensivist with 'pruned' patients.....?more ARF but less ARDS, =3D fortunately I can easily treat the former! ----- Original Message -----=3D20 From: alster=3D20 To: trauma-list@trauma.org=3D20 Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 11:20 PM Subject: Re: PANCREATIC TRAUMA - more info to ICU guys Greetings list! Thank you all for your input. Well let me give you additional = info: 26 Y/O white latin male was victim of a gunshot wound in the RUQ = =3D exiting on the back (lumbar level).=3D20 Trauma to the pancreas (Grade III - caudal pancreatectomy = performed), =3D Stomach (Grade II - sutured), Spleen (nothing done -Grade I), = Diaphragm =3D (sutured) and mesentery (sutured). Pancreatic fistula (400ml/day = from =3D day 5 till 10th Post Op day). U/S showed no collections elsewhere. = No =3D fever. Suddenly, at the 12th POp day he was in abdominal pain with no = relief =3D to analgesics. Plus there was a leucocytosis 15.000 (B=3D3D7% = S=3D3D70%). We ordered a CT but 12h later he had to be admitted to ICU because = of =3D ARDS. His oxymetry saturation reached 30% at best with = FiO2=3D3D100%. He =3D died in 4 hours. ABGs: Basically metabolic acidosis with increased anion gap. I = better =3D look his chart over again. CRProtein =3D3D 100.000 (nl<5). Lactate 20. 19Y/O white latin female was also victim of a gunshot wound on the = =3D back exiting at epigastric level. She got a ride from her boyfriend = who =3D was driving a motorcycle when 2 other guys in a car tried to rob = him. As =3D soon as he accelerated, trying to run away, his girlfriend was shot = on =3D the back and he suffered only scratches in his right arm There was a = =3D trauma to the tail of the pancreas.=3D20 That trauma was only diagnosed by CT and because amylase levels = =3D reached 549. Besides that, pt was doing fine. Still in noradrenalin = but =3D going down with 0,15mcg/Kg/min.Based on CT findings and because = there =3D was no ERCP available during weekends she was taken to the OR and a = =3D distal pancreatectomy plus spenectomy was performed. No intraop =3D cholangiography was done. She did well till the 10th POp day when = both =3D lungs got WHITE and she developed ARDS. Amylase levels diminished to = =3D normal levels. Then, hepatic and renal insufficiency. Her pulse = oxymetry =3D at best was 40% with FiO2=3D3D100% (last Friday) getting better when = TGI =3D was instituted (80% at best). Our hemofiltration machine was broken. = =3D Several U/S was done showing no collection besides 18ml around the = =3D pancreas. As she was unstable no post op ct was done. She had no = fever. =3D Nothing.She died at the 23 Post Op day (Saturday).=3D20 ABGs:metabolic acidosis with increased anion gap (renal failure). = =3D CRProtein=3D3D255.000. Lactate=3D3D50 ----- Original Message -----=3D20 From: MARK FORREST=3D20 To: trauma-list@trauma.org=3D20 Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 5:08 PM Subject: Re: PANCREATIC TRAUMA - What are we missing? Dear Alster, Any more information for the non-surgical members.=3D20 Very interested in the amount and type of fluid given during =3D resuscitation and inevitable SIRS period after surgery. Surprised that deteriorations were so rapid as although surgical = =3D conditions can develop rapidly, the ARDS picture is far more likely = to =3D have been developing over several days. Any ABGs, CRPs, lactates prior to deterioration? Mark F=3D20 ITU Cons,UK ----- Original Message -----=3D20 From: alster=3D20 To: trauma-list@trauma.org=3D20 Sent: Monday, February 11, 2002 10:35 PM Subject: PANCREATIC TRAUMA - What are we missing? Hello List!=3D20 Where do we go from here? 26 Y/O white latin male was victim of a gunshot wound in the = RUQ =3D exiting on the back (lumbar level).=3D20 Trauma to the pancreas (Grade III - caudal pancreatectomy =3D performed), Stomach (Grade II - sutured), Spleen (nothing done = -Grade =3D I), Diaphragm (sutured) and mesentery (sutured). Pancreatic fistula = =3D (400ml/day from day 5 till 10th Post Op day). U/S showed no = collections =3D elsewhere. No fever. Suddenly, at the 12th POp day he was in abdominal pain with no = =3D relief to analgesics. Plus there was a leucocytosis 15.000 (B=3D3D7% = =3D S=3D3D70%). We ordered a CT but 12h later he had to be admitted to ICU = because =3D of ARDS. His oxymetry saturation reached 30% at best with = FiO2=3D3D100%. =3D He died in 4 hours. 19Y/O white latin female was also victim of a gunshot wound on = the =3D back exiting at epigastric level. She got a ride from her boyfriend = who =3D was driving a motorcycle when 2 other guys in a car tried to rob = him. As =3D soon as he accelerated, trying to run away, his girlfriend was shot = on =3D the back and he suffered only scratches in his right arm. There was = a =3D trauma to the tail of the pancreas as showed bellow: =3D20 That trauma was only diagnosed by CT and because amylase = levels =3D reached 549. Besides that, pt was doing fine. Still in noradrenalin = but =3D going down with 0,15mcg/Kg/min. Based on CT findings and because there was no ERCP available = =3D during weekends she was taken to the OR and a distal pancreatectomy = plus =3D spenectomy was performed. No intraop cholangiography was done. She did well = till =3D the 10th POp day when both lungs got WHITE and she developed ARDS. = =3D Amylase levels diminished to normal levels. Then, hepatic and renal = =3D insufficiency. Her pulse oxymetry at best was 40% with FiO2=3D3D100% = (last =3D Friday) getting better when TGI was instituted (80% at best). Our = =3D hemofiltration machine was broken. Several U/S was done showing no = =3D collection besides 18ml around the pancreas. As she was unstable no = post =3D op ct was done. She had no fever. Nothing.She died at the 23 Post Op = day =3D (Saturday).=3D20 What are we missing? CAlster, MD ------=3D_NextPart_001_009D_01C1BB38.454B25C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3D3DContent-Type content=3D3D"text/html; =3D charset=3D3Diso-8859-1"> <META content=3D3D"MSHTML 5.50.4207.2601" name=3D3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Dear Alster,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Thank you for the additional = info. Both =3D of these=3D20 patients clearly had something catastrophic going on in their = abdomens. =3D These=3D20 kind of numbers are very severe and will have been rising for some = time. =3D To me=3D20 they clearly indicate major ischaemia, even allowing for ARF, and = the =3D need for=3D20 urgent laparotomy (which would probably demonstrate = ischaemic/infarcted=3D20 bowel)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Although a fan of high flux HF = or HDF =3D in sepsis, it=3D20 will not salvage patients like this who need surgical intervention. = Such =3D renal=3D20 therapies merely put the 'brakes' on the numbers and mask the = severity =3D of the=3D20 condition until it is too late.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>The second case appears to have = =3D developed=3D20 overwhelming ARDS as a result of the initial insult, the subsequent = =3D abdominal=3D20 inflammation and possibly overzealous fluid resuscitation in obvious = =3D SIRS. In=3D20 our unit we firmly believe that the battle is often lost = pre-hospital or =3D in=3D20 resus where patients are over-filled with resus fluid, before = theatre =3D and more=3D20 fluid, before blood transfusion and then finally ITU after 10-20 = litres =3D of fluid=3D20 for an initial true blood loss of maybe 2 litres.....LESS FLUID = IS=3D20 BEST!?...discuss!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Hopefully, as the concept of = permissive =3D hypotension, small volume resuscitation and hypertonics becomes more = =3D frequently=3D20 practised, then the struggles of the intensivists will be =3D reduced.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Evidence base? How can an = intensivist =3D prove that=3D20 the amount of fluid given at the roadside etc will alter = outcome =3D after ? 10=3D20 days of ITU care and all of its therapies and = variables?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Any more information =3D Alster?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Regards</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Mark F</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Intensivist with 'pruned' =3D patients.....?more ARF=3D20 but less ARDS, fortunately I can easily treat the = former!</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3D3Dltr=3D20 style=3D3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = =3D BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- = </DIV> <DIV=3D20 style=3D3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =3D black"><B>From:</B>=3D20 <A title=3D3Dalster@usp.br = href=3D3D"mailto:alster@usp.br">alster</A> =3D </DIV> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =3D title=3D3Dtrauma-list@trauma.org=3D20 = href=3D3D"mailto:trauma-list@trauma.org">trauma-list@trauma.org</A> =3D </DIV> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, February = 20, =3D 2002 11:20=3D20 PM</DIV> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: PANCREATIC = TRAUMA =3D - more=3D20 info to ICU guys</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Greetings list!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Thank you all for your = input. =3D Well let me=3D20 give you additional info:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D1><STRONG>26 Y/O white latin = male was =3D victim of a=3D20 gunshot wound in the RUQ exiting on the back = (lumbar level). =3D </STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D1><STRONG>Trauma to the = pancreas (Grade =3D III -=3D20 caudal pancreatectomy performed), Stomach (Grade II - sutured), = Spleen =3D (nothing done -Grade I), Diaphragm (sutured) and mesentery = (sutured).=3D20 Pancreatic fistula (400ml/day from day 5 till 10th Post Op day). = U/S =3D showed no=3D20 collections elsewhere. No fever.</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D1><STRONG>Suddenly, at the 12th = POp day =3D he was in=3D20 abdominal pain with no relief to analgesics. Plus there was = a=3D20 leucocytosis 15.000 (B=3D3D7% S=3D3D70%).</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2><STRONG><FONT size=3D3D1>We = ordered a =3D CT but 12h=3D20 later he had to be admitted to ICU because of ARDS. His oxymetry = =3D saturation=3D20 reached 30% at best with FiO2=3D3D100%. He died in 4=3D20 hours</FONT></STRONG>.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>ABGs: Basically metabolic = acidosis =3D with increased=3D20 anion gap. I better look his chart over again.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>CRProtein =3D3D 100.000 = (nl<5). =3D Lactate=3D20 20.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial><FONT size=3D3D1>19Y/O white latin = female was =3D also victim of=3D20 a gunshot wound on the back exiting at epigastric level. She got a = =3D ride from=3D20 her boyfriend who was driving a motorcycle when 2 other = guys =3D in a=3D20 car tried to rob him. As soon as he accelerated, trying to run = away, =3D his=3D20 girlfriend was shot on the back and he suffered only scratches in = his =3D right=3D20 arm There was a trauma to the tail of the pancreas. </FONT> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D1>That trauma was only diagnosed by CT and = because =3D amylase=3D20 levels reached 549. Besides that, pt was doing fine. = Still =3D in=3D20 noradrenalin but going down with 0,15mcg/Kg/min.Based on = CT =3D findings=3D20 and because there was no ERCP available during weekends she was = taken =3D to the=3D20 OR and a distal pancreatectomy plus spenectomy was performed. No = =3D intraop=3D20 cholangiography was done. She did well till the 10th POp day =3D when both=3D20 lungs got WHITE and she developed ARDS. Amylase levels =3D diminished to=3D20 normal levels. Then, hepatic and renal insufficiency. Her pulse = =3D oxymetry at=3D20 best was 40% with FiO2=3D3D100% (last Friday) getting better when = TGI =3D was=3D20 instituted (80% at best). Our hemofiltration machine was broken. = =3D Several U/S=3D20 was done showing no collection besides 18ml around the pancreas. = As =3D she was=3D20 unstable no post op ct was done. She had no =3D fever. Nothing.She died=3D20 at the 23 Post Op day (Saturday). </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D1></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>ABGs:metabolic acidosis with increased anion gap (renal = failure). =3D CRProtein=3D3D255.000. Lactate=3D3D50</DIV></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2></FONT> </DIV></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3D3Dltr=3D20 style=3D3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: = 5px; =3D BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- = </DIV> <DIV=3D20 style=3D3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = =3D black"><B>From:</B>=3D20 <A title=3D3Datacc.doc@virgin.net =3D href=3D3D"mailto:atacc.doc@virgin.net">MARK=3D20 FORREST</A> </DIV> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =3D title=3D3Dtrauma-list@trauma.org=3D20 = href=3D3D"mailto:trauma-list@trauma.org">trauma-list@trauma.org</A> =3D </DIV> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, February = 12, =3D 2002 5:08=3D20 PM</DIV> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: PANCREATIC = =3D TRAUMA - What=3D20 are we missing?</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Dear Alster,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Any more information for = the =3D non-surgical=3D20 members. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Very interested in the = amount and =3D type of fluid=3D20 given during resuscitation and inevitable SIRS period after=3D20 surgery.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Surprised that = deteriorations were =3D so rapid as=3D20 although surgical conditions can develop rapidly, the ARDS = picture =3D is far=3D20 more likely to have been developing over several = days.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Any ABGs, CRPs, lactates = prior to=3D20 deterioration?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Mark F </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>ITU Cons,UK</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3D3Dltr=3D20 style=3D3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: = 5px; =3D BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- = =3D </DIV> <DIV=3D20 style=3D3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = =3D black"><B>From:</B>=3D20 <A title=3D3Dalster@usp.br = href=3D3D"mailto:alster@usp.br">alster</A> =3D </DIV> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =3D title=3D3Dtrauma-list@trauma.org=3D20 = href=3D3D"mailto:trauma-list@trauma.org">trauma-list@trauma.org</A> =3D </DIV> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, = February 11, =3D 2002 10:35=3D20 PM</DIV> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> PANCREATIC = TRAUMA =3D - What are=3D20 we missing?</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2></FONT><BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Hello List! </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Where do we go from =3D here?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>26 Y/O white latin male = was =3D victim of a=3D20 gunshot wound in the RUQ exiting on the back =3D (lumbar level).=3D20 </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Trauma to the pancreas = (Grade III =3D - caudal=3D20 pancreatectomy performed), Stomach (Grade II - sutured), = Spleen =3D (nothing=3D20 done -Grade I), Diaphragm (sutured) and mesentery (sutured). = =3D Pancreatic=3D20 fistula (400ml/day from day 5 till 10th Post Op day). U/S = showed =3D no=3D20 collections elsewhere. No fever.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Suddenly, at the 12th POp = day he =3D was in=3D20 abdominal pain with no relief to analgesics. Plus there = was a =3D leucocytosis 15.000 (B=3D3D7% S=3D3D70%).</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>We ordered a CT but 12h = later he =3D had to be=3D20 admitted to ICU because of ARDS. His oxymetry saturation = reached =3D 30% at=3D20 best with FiO2=3D3D100%. He died in 4 hours.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>19Y/O white latin female = was also =3D victim of a=3D20 gunshot wound on the back exiting at epigastric level. She got = a =3D ride from=3D20 her boyfriend who was driving a motorcycle when 2 = other =3D guys in=3D20 a car tried to rob him. As soon as he accelerated, trying to = run =3D away, his=3D20 girlfriend was shot on the back and he suffered only scratches = in =3D his=3D20 right arm. There was a trauma to the tail of the pancreas as = =3D showed=3D20 bellow:</FONT></DIV><IMG=3D20 alt=3D3D"Will you operated on this pt based on CT findings?" = =3D hspace=3D3D0=3D20 src=3D3D"cid:009a01c1bb38$44ee11a0$70d1fc3e@oemcomputer" =3D border=3D3D0> <IMG=3D20 alt=3D3D"What about this one?" hspace=3D3D0=3D20 src=3D3D"cid:009b01c1bb38$453a5ce0$70d1fc3e@oemcomputer" = border=3D3D0> =3D <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>That trauma was only diagnosed by CT and because amylase = =3D levels=3D20 reached 549. Besides that, pt was doing fine. Still = in=3D20 noradrenalin but going down with = 0,15mcg/Kg/min.</DIV> <DIV>Based on CT findings and because there was no ERCP = available =3D during=3D20 weekends she was taken to the OR and a distal pancreatectomy = plus=3D20 spenectomy was</DIV> <DIV>performed. No intraop cholangiography was done. She did = well =3D till the=3D20 10th POp day when both lungs got WHITE and she developed = =3D ARDS.=3D20 Amylase levels diminished to normal levels. Then, hepatic = and =3D renal=3D20 insufficiency. Her pulse oxymetry at best was 40% with = FiO2=3D3D100% =3D (last=3D20 Friday) getting better when TGI was instituted (80% at best). = Our=3D20 hemofiltration machine was broken. Several U/S was done = showing no =3D collection besides 18ml around the pancreas. As she was = unstable =3D no post=3D20 op ct was done. She had no fever. Nothing.She died = at =3D the 23=3D20 Post Op day (Saturday). </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What are we missing?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>CAlster, MD</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial=3D20 = size=3D3D2></FONT> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BO= DY=3D ></HTML> ------=3D_NextPart_001_009D_01C1BB38.454B25C0-- ------=3D_NextPart_000_009C_01C1BB38.454B25C0 Content-Type: image/jpeg; name=3D"masimone.jpg" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <009a01c1bb38$44ee11a0$70d1fc3e@oemcomputer> = /9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAgEASABIAAD/7RBUUGhvdG9zaG9wIDMuMAA4QklNA+0AAAAAABAASAAAA= AEA = AgBIAAAAAQACOEJJTQQNAAAAAAAEAAAAeDhCSU0D8wAAAAAACAAAAAAAAAAAOEJJTQQKAAAAA= AAB = AAA4QklNJxAAAAAAAAoAAQAAAAAAAAACOEJJTQP1AAAAAABIAC9mZgABAGxmZgAGAAAAAAABA= C9m = ZgABAKGZmgAGAAAAAAABADIAAAABAFoAAAAGAAAAAAABADUAAAABAC0AAAAGAAAAAAABOEJJT= QP4 = 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trauma-list@trauma.org I think there is more then one plausible explanation.... try yours = in reverse! Like this: Seizure activity > Anoxia > Cardiac ischemia > V-fib In addition, reading V-fib on a monitor during seizure activity can = be dangerous. Treating your patient (meaning check for pulses) is = probably more critical then reading the monitor. Turn this into a further discussion by asking, at times finding a = pulse may be difficult during seizure activity, so would you first give a med = (benzo or other relaxant) and intubate or would you jump to ACLS and Shock = Shock Shock? Take care. Nick P.S. Your right, this is not really a trauma discussion, other then = what if the seizure was caused by head injury leading to this crashing = spiral? ____ Nick Nudell, NREMT-P Glacier County EMS www.glacierems.com Northern Rockies Medical Center Cut Bank, MT nick@glacierems.com ----- Original Message ----- From: <Nappio@aol.com> To: <trauma-list@trauma.org> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2002 4:38 PM Subject: Re: v-fib seizure > ATTENTION: > > V-fib > Anoxia > Ischemic brain hit > seizure = activity > > Mr. Ramstrom, Mr. Clopp asked the rhetorical "stupid question" if = you will, > and stated the truth about his knowledge deficit,,but at least he = stepped > forth and asked the question so he wouldnt be just a cook book = ambulance > driver.If you want to eliminate the negative attitudes you speak = of you have > to accept the fact that there are cook book ambulance drivers who = need to be > educated. > DN > > -- > trauma-list : TRAUMA.ORG > To change your settings or unsubscribe visit: > http://www.trauma.org/traumalist.html > --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 14:21:09 +1100 From: "Ian Seppelt" <SeppelI@wahs.nsw.gov.au> To: <trauma-list@trauma.org> Subject: Re: v-fib seizure Reply-To: trauma-list@trauma.org "v-fib seizure" - never heard of it. These patients had a primary cardiac arrest and then a secondary = hypoxic =3D seizure - treatment is just as you indicated with defibrillation and = oxyg=3D en. Cheers, Ian Ian Seppelt Nepean Hospital, Sydney. >>> CrnbryEMT@aol.com 02/22/02 06:35am >>> Many apologies for tossing this to a tramua list ... Does anyone have information on such a thing as a "v-fib seizure"? = In my =3D short experience I have been called to at least one patient that had = seiz=3D ure activity followed by cardiac arrest (initial rhythm: v-fib) with = no s=3D eizure history. I've been told by many that the person must have had = a "v=3D -fib seizure". Is this a seizure that precipitates v-fib? V-vib that initially = causes so=3D me sort of hypoxic seizure? As a Paramedic my treatment is = ultimately the=3D =3D20same: CPR and ACLS appropriate to the presenting rhythm ... I = just go =3D up a tree when I don't know "why". Thanks. -Greg Clopp, MICP -- trauma-list : TRAUMA.ORG To change your settings or unsubscribe visit: http://www.trauma.org/traumalist.html = ###################################################################### Attention:=3D20 This message is intended for the addresses named and may = contain=3D20 confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, = please delete it and notify the sender. Views expressed in this message = are=3D20 those of the individual sender, and are not necessarily the views = of=3D20 Wentworth Area Health Service. This e-mail has been scanned for viruses = ###################################################################### --__--__-- --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Ian Cross" <ian_ff@hotmail.com> To: trauma-list@trauma.org Subject: Tension Pneumothorax Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 14:32:49 +0000 Reply-To: trauma-list@trauma.org I'm a fire-fighter working in a very rural community. We don't see = that much trauma, but on occasions the country roads have a habit of = exposing some nasty injuries. We have just been through the trapped occupant/tension pneumothorax experience. having read as much as I can on this subject, (with the small amount = of literature I have available). The signs of a developing T.P. are well described and the procedure = of needle decompression is also well described. However it is mentioned by those in the emergency services = (paramedics who we occasionally get to chat with). Needle decompression is only successful in about 40% of cases, - fat = cells are jammed into the cannula In needle decompression the 'classical hiss of air being released' = is often not present. In T.P. the lung will not re-inflate once the tension has been = relieved. Is all the above correct ? If so how would one know that the decompression has worked ? Does the increasing respiratory rate, slow down, does the = respiratory rate decrease ? The the patients anxiety and distress reduce ? i can find no literaturew that describes the outcome of successful decompression and as yet no one to answer my questions. Can someone please help. Not that we would be in a position to = provide this procedure for a patient, it is just a question that I find very = interesting and cannot find an answer. Ian Greaves, Fire-fighter, The highlands of Scotland _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx --__--__-- Message: 11 From: FtLaudALSTeam@aol.com Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 15:50:37 EST Subject: Re: v-fib seizure To: trauma-list@trauma.org Reply-To: trauma-list@trauma.org --part1_51.1989bd8a.29a8091d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mr. Ramstrom, your apology is well taken and I admire you for responding and the way you responded. It is well taken. Have a good = day. Jorge Aguiar FF/PM Ft. Lauderdale Fire/Rescue --part1_51.1989bd8a.29a8091d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000ff" SIZE=3D2 = FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Century Gothic" LANG=3D"0"><BR> Mr. Ramstrom, your apology is = well taken and I admire you for responding and the way you responded. It = is well taken. Have a good day.<BR> <BR> Jorge Aguiar FF/PM<BR> Ft. Lauderdale Fire/Rescue</FONT></HTML> --part1_51.1989bd8a.29a8091d_boundary-- --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "Bjorn, Pret" <pbjorn@emh.org> To: "'trauma-list@trauma.org'" <trauma-list@trauma.org> Subject: RE: v-fib seizure Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 15:59:04 -0500 Reply-To: trauma-list@trauma.org Nick, Absolutely possible, but uncommon and unlikely. Anoxia most = frequently leads to bradycardia, not VF. And although I agree that you should = treat the patient, not the monitor, I can recall at least one case of a = teenage girl with Long QT who was treated for several minutes as a seizure = before anyone checked her pulse OR rhythm (Torsades). Leaves a bad taste. I think that most folks who have witnessed a conscious patient = suffering sudden-onset VF would agree that the physical manifestations could = fairly be mistaken for seizure activity. This more clearly speaks to the = original post: sudden death is rarely subtle. Best Regards, Pret -----Original Message----- From: Nick Nudell [mailto:nick@glacierems.com] Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2002 7:59 PM To: trauma-list@trauma.org Subject: Re: v-fib seizure I think there is more then one plausible explanation.... try yours = in reverse! Like this: Seizure activity > Anoxia > Cardiac ischemia > V-fib In addition, reading V-fib on a monitor during seizure activity can = be dangerous. Treating your patient (meaning check for pulses) is = probably more critical then reading the monitor. Turn this into a further discussion by asking, at times finding a = pulse may be difficult during seizure activity, so would you first give a med = (benzo or other relaxant) and intubate or would you jump to ACLS and Shock = Shock Shock? Take care. Nick P.S. Your right, this is not really a trauma discussion, other then = what if the seizure was caused by head injury leading to this crashing = spiral? ____ Nick Nudell, NREMT-P Glacier County EMS www.glacierems.com Northern Rockies Medical Center Cut Bank, MT nick@glacierems.com ----- Original Message ----- From: <Nappio@aol.com> To: <trauma-list@trauma.org> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2002 4:38 PM Subject: Re: v-fib seizure > ATTENTION: > > V-fib > Anoxia > Ischemic brain hit > seizure = activity > > Mr. Ramstrom, Mr. Clopp asked the rhetorical "stupid question" if = you will, > and stated the truth about his knowledge deficit,,but at least he = stepped > forth and asked the question so he wouldnt be just a cook book = ambulance > driver.If you want to eliminate the negative attitudes you speak = of you have > to accept the fact that there are cook book ambulance drivers who = need to be > educated. > DN > > -- > trauma-list : TRAUMA.ORG > To change your settings or unsubscribe visit: > http://www.trauma.org/traumalist.html > -- trauma-list : TRAUMA.ORG To change your settings or unsubscribe visit: http://www.trauma.org/traumalist.html --__--__-- Message: 13 From: FtLaudALSTeam@aol.com Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 16:01:01 EST Subject: Re:v-fib To: trauma-list@trauma.org Reply-To: trauma-list@trauma.org --part1_185.407c643.29a80b8d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I work with cook book Paramedics and have to compensate for = them sometimes. Nonetheless, there is no need to slam someone when he or = she has the guts to go online in a forum where there are physicians and = others with an acknowledged higher education and ask a question. That is just = showing lack of class, tact and decency. We do not know if he is a cook book medic....all he did was ask a question. Take care. --part1_185.407c643.29a80b8d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000ff" SIZE=3D2 = FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Century Gothic" LANG=3D"0"><BR> I work with cook book = Paramedics and have to compensate for them sometimes. Nonetheless, there = is no need to slam someone when he or she has the guts to go online in a = forum where there are physicians and others with an acknowledged higher = education and ask a question. That is just showing lack of class, tact = and decency. We do not know if he is a cook book medic....all he did was = ask a question. Take care. </FONT></HTML> --part1_185.407c643.29a80b8d_boundary-- --__--__-- -- trauma-list : TRAUMA.ORG To change your settings or unsubscribe visit: http://www.trauma.org/traumalist.html End of trauma-list Digest -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : = http://explorer.msn.com ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C1BC73.8FFA6FE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4134.100" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY=20 style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; BORDER-TOP: medium none; FONT: 10pt = verdana; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"=20 bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial>Thanks, we will consider it because of the = hypotension=20 caused by the opiates.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial>Alejandro Cabrera, M.D.</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20 style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B>=20 <A title=3Djohnjmblack@msn.com = href=3D"mailto:johnjmblack@msn.com">John &=20 Rebecca Black</A> </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = title=3Dtrauma-list@trauma.org=20 href=3D"mailto:trauma-list@trauma.org">trauma-list@trauma.org</A> = </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, February 23, = 2002 5:03=20 AM</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Burns analgesia- = KETAMINE</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>Alejandro,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The agent that I would strongly urge you all to consider = using in=20 the situation you describe is an analgesic dose of ketamine (0.1 = -=20 0.5mg/kg) mg . It is immensely valuable in the prehospital phase = of=20 patient's care and, unlike morphine, is probably the analgesic = agent of=20 choice if your patient also has a significant volume issue. Low dose = midazolam=20 may be added to reduce the risk or emergence dysphoria in less serious = burns.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If the patient requires a definitive airway, and/or aeromedical=20 evacuation is being considered, ketamine (1- 4mg/kg IV or IM) is also = an=20 extremely attractive induction agent.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>John Black</DIV> <DIV>Consultant Emergency Medicine</DIV> <DIV>John Radcliffe Hospital</DIV> <DIV>Oxford UK</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Message: 9<BR>From: "Timothy J Coats"=20 <t.j.coats@qmul.ac.uk><BR>Organization: MDS QMW<BR>To:=20 trauma-list@trauma.org<BR>Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 08:50:31 = BST<BR>Subject: Re:=20 Burn patients.<BR>Reply-To:=20 trauma-list@trauma.org<BR><BR>Alejandro,<BR><BR>Standard pain control = would be=20 to cover burns with clingfilm<BR>(=3Dsaranwrap in the USA I think) to = prevent=20 air movement over them,<BR>plus large doses of opiates (morphine) as = part of=20 balanced anaesthesia.<BR><BR>Not sure about flying out the patient you = describe - maybe terminal<BR>care by a local physician near to home = with easy=20 access for relatives<BR>would be nicer. However, I guess the local = docs may=20 not feel that they<BR>can cope with this.<BR><BR>Tim.<BR><BR>Timothy J = Coats=20 MD FRCS FFAEM<BR>Senior Lecturer in Accident and Emergency / = Pre-Hospital=20 Care<BR>Royal London Hospital, UK.<BR></DIV> <DIV> -----Original Message-----<BR>From: Avi Roy Shapira=20 [mailto:avir@bgumail.bgu.ac.il]<BR>Sent: Friday, February 22, 2002 = 2:00=20 PM<BR>To: trauma-list@trauma.org<BR>Subject: Re: Burn=20 patients.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Give iv morphine. My practice is to dilute 10 = mg in 9=20 ml of saline, in a<BR>10 ml syringe, give 3-5 iv push, and then add mg = by mg=20 until pain free.<BR><BR>Repeat as needed.<BR><BR>Avi<BR><BR><BR>On = Thu, 21 Feb=20 2002, Alejandro Cabrera , M.D. wrote:<BR><BR>> Hy:<BR>> We've = been=20 flying a few patients with 90%(+) BSP burns of second and = third<BR>>=20 degree, and, some bettween 50 and 90% and I was wondering which are=20 your<BR>> protocols for pain management obviously they were = intubate=20 because airway<BR>> burned , the place where we flew from has no=20 ABG's (little town) , but<BR>one<BR>> of them with more than = 90% with=20 renal failure, and, coagulopathy.<BR>> I know it's not life = compatible but=20 we must do the best we can, what do<BR>you<BR>> suggest?<BR>> = Alejandro=20 Cabrera, M.D.<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> --<BR>> trauma-list : = TRAUMA.ORG<BR>> To change your settings or unsubscribe = visit:<BR>>=20 = http://www.trauma.org/traumalist.html<BR>><BR><BR>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<BR>Aviel=20 Roy-Shapira,=20 = M.D. &nb= sp; =20 Soroka University Hospital &<BR>Dept. of Surgery A.=20 = and &nbs= p; =20 Ben-Gurion University Medical School<BR>the Critical Care=20 = Unit &nb= sp; =20 POB 151, Beer Sheva, Israel<BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message -----</DIV> <DIV=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt Arial; COLOR: = black"><B>From:</B>=20 trauma-list-request@trauma.org</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>Sent:</B> 22 February 2002 = 21:13</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>To:</B> = trauma-list@trauma.org</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>Subject:</B> trauma-list digest, = Vol 1=20 #1286 - 13 msgs</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>Send trauma-list mailing list submissions=20 to<BR>trauma-list@trauma.org<BR><BR>To subscribe or unsubscribe via = the=20 World Wide Web,=20 visit<BR>http://list.ftech.net/mailman/listinfo/trauma-list<BR>or, = via=20 email, send a message with subject or body 'help'=20 to<BR>trauma-list-request@trauma.org<BR><BR>You can reach the person = managing the list at<BR>trauma-list-admin@trauma.org<BR><BR>When = replying,=20 please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<BR>than "Re: = Contents=20 of trauma-list digest..."<BR><BR><BR>Today's = Topics:<BR><BR> 1.=20 v-fib seizure (Vergote Lieven)<BR> 2. Re: v-fib seizure=20 (CrnbryEMT@aol.com)<BR> 3. RE: ORIGINS OF AVPU (bobby=20 smith)<BR> 4. Re: Burn patients. (Avi Roy=20 Shapira)<BR> 5. RE: Burn patients. (Bjorn, = Pret)<BR> =20 6. Re: PANCREATIC TRAUMA - more info to ICU guys (MARK=20 FORREST)<BR> 7. Re: v-fib seizure (Nick = Nudell)<BR> =20 8. Re: v-fib seizure (Ian Seppelt)<BR> 9. Re: Burn = patients.=20 (Timothy J Coats)<BR> 10. Tension Pneumothorax (Ian = Cross)<BR> =20 11. Re: v-fib seizure (FtLaudALSTeam@aol.com)<BR> 12. RE: = v-fib=20 seizure (Bjorn, Pret)<BR> 13. Re:v-fib=20 (FtLaudALSTeam@aol.com)<BR><BR>--__--__--<BR><BR>Message: 1<BR>From: = Vergote=20 Lieven <lieven.vergote@asz-aalst.be><BR>To: = "'trauma-list@trauma.org'"=20 <trauma-list@trauma.org><BR>Subject: v-fib seizure<BR>Date: = Fri, 22=20 Feb 2002 13:57:16 +0100<BR>Reply-To: = trauma-list@trauma.org<BR><BR>In my=20 opinion this is a seizure due to cerebral hypoxia in a patient=20 with<BR>CRA.<BR>As Always treat the appropriate way: ABCD what you = have=20 done<BR><BR><BR>--__--__--<BR><BR>Message: 2<BR>Date: Fri, 22 Feb = 2002=20 08:11:28 EST<BR>From: CrnbryEMT@aol.com<BR>Subject: Re: v-fib = seizure<BR>To:=20 <trauma-list@trauma.org><BR>Reply-To:=20 trauma-list@trauma.org<BR><BR>"Ouch" for the slam. (Knowing "why" = makes me a=20 better medic.)<BR><BR>"Thanks" for the defense. (Exactly why I posed = the=20 question.)<BR><BR>And "Thanks!" for the answers. (It's as I thought, = now I=20 know for sure.)<BR><BR>I beleive I stated in my question that I = thought=20 v-fib seizures were due to hypoixa. (v-fib =3D poor perfusion =3D = hypoxia) I was=20 simply wondering if there was another mechanism at work.<BR><BR>No, = I am not=20 a "cookbook medic" as someone so eloquently put it ... but my = treatment of a=20 patient in v-fib is the same whether they had a seizure or not! My = paramedic=20 course was very progressive and in depth, however never mentioned = v-fib=20 seizures ... I was simply trying to find if there were evidence to = show that=20 an seizure could lead to v-fib.<BR><BR>-Greg Clopp,=20 MICP<BR><BR><BR>--__--__--<BR><BR>Message: 3<BR>Date: Fri, 22 Feb = 2002=20 05:49:15 -0800 (PST)<BR>From: bobby smith=20 <bobbyrn_2000@yahoo.com><BR>Subject: RE: ORIGINS OF = AVPU<BR>To:=20 trauma-list@trauma.org<BR>Reply-To:=20 = trauma-list@trauma.org<BR><BR>--0-1499779953-1014385755=3D:4594<BR>Conten= t-Type:=20 text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii<BR><BR><BR>Pret<BR>To better set a = time line I=20 was taught AVPU in the late 70's in prehospital care=20 classes.<BR>Bobby<BR> "Bjorn, Pret" <pbjorn@emh.org> = wrote:=20 Laurie, Thanks very kindly--this is more than I expected. = Sadly,=20 however, my quest continues. First and foremost, I'm suspicious at = the=20 assertion that AVPU is an ACS invention. I no longer possess a = 1993=20 ATLS Manual (listed among the references), but if anyone is able to = relate=20 to me where it states anything like "the College has created the = AVPU method=20 as a useful alternative to the Glasgow Coma Scale," I'd be eager to = hear=20 about it. Also, the paper provides an unconvincing argument in favor = of=20 AVPU, at best amplifying its poor sensitivity to describe or = recommend much=20 of anything. Among the highlights of the discussion: = "Patients=20 who are responsive only to a painful stimulus will usually have a = GCS of 8=20 or less and therefore may be at risk of airway = problems." A=20 curious conclusion, being that 46% of these patients have a GCS of 9 = or=20 more... Strange (perhaps telling) that the investigators spent = so much=20 time collecting numbers, but never subjected them to any real = statistical=20 analysis. Finally, consider the objectives: to associate AVPU with = GCS,=20 presumably because AVPU is easier, and GCS only works with trained=20 practitioners; however, within the conclusion and discussion, it is=20 repeatedly suggested that AVPU suffers from a lack of an objective=20 assessment guideline, and practitioners of AVPU are = undertrained. If=20 you're going to go to all that effort to improve upon a tool which = is so=20 clearly inferior to GCS, why not simply improve the utilization of = GCS? On=20 and on, round and round... Pret ----Original = Message-----<BR>From:=20 Laurie [mailto:ggh@bentonrea.com]<BR>Sent: Tuesday, February 19, = 2002 9:04=20 PM<BR>To: trauma-list@trauma.org<BR>Subject: Fw: ORIGINS OF=20 APUV<BR><BR><BR>Dear Pret, Attached you will find the answer to your = quest. Laurie GrimesResearch=20 = fiend<BR><BR>http://www.google.com/search?q=3Dcache:KbAYukdct-oC:www.basi= cs.freewire.co.uk/Templates/DLMar00/9919.pdf+neurological+assessment+tool= +%27APUV%22&hl=3Den<BR><BR><BR>---------------------------------<BR>D= o=20 You Yahoo!?<BR>Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic=20 Games<BR>--0-1499779953-1014385755=3D:4594<BR>Content-Type: = text/html;=20 charset=3Dus-ascii<BR><BR><P> Pret<BR><P>To better set a = time line=20 I was taught AVPU in the late 70's in prehospital care=20 classes.<BR><P>Bobby<BR><P>&nbsp; = <B><I>"Bjorn,=20 Pret" &lt;pbjorn@emh.org&gt;</I></B>=20 wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid; = MARGIN-LEFT:=20 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD = HTML 4.0=20 Transitional//EN"><BR><META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2919.6307"=20 = name=3DGENERATOR><BR><STYLE></STYLE><BR><BR><DIV><= ;FONT=20 color=3D#800000 face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 = class=3D980573612-20022002>Laurie,</SPAN></FONT></DIV&g= t;<BR><DIV><FONT=20 color=3D#800000 face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 = class=3D980573612-20022002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DI= V><BR><DIV><FONT=20 color=3D#800000 face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D980573612-20022002>Thanks very kindly--this is more than = I=20 expected.&nbsp; Sadly, however, my quest=20 = continues.</SPAN></FONT></DIV><BR><DIV><FONT=20 color=3D#800000 face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 = class=3D980573612-20022002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DI= V><BR><DIV><FONT=20 color=3D#800000 face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D980573612-20022002>First and foremost, I'm suspicious at = the=20 assertion that AVPU is an ACS invention.&nbsp; I no longer = possess a=20 1993 ATLS Manual (listed among the references), but if anyone is = able to=20 relate to me where it states anything like "the College has created = the AVPU=20 method&nbsp;as a useful alternative to the Glasgow Coma Scale," = I'd be=20 eager to hear about=20 it.</SPAN></FONT></DIV><BR><DIV><FONT=20 color=3D#800000 face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 = class=3D980573612-20022002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DI= V><BR><DIV><FONT=20 color=3D#800000 face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D980573612-20022002>Also, the paper provides an = unconvincing=20 argument in favor of AVPU, at best amplifying its poor sensitivity = to=20 describe or recommend much of anything.&nbsp; Among the = highlights of=20 the discussion:&nbsp; "<EM>Patients who are responsive = only to a=20 painful stimulus will usually have a GCS of 8 or less and therefore = may be=20 at risk of airway problems</EM>."&nbsp;&nbsp; A = curious=20 conclusion, being that&nbsp;46% of these patients have a GCS of = 9 or=20 more...&nbsp; Strange (perhaps telling) that the investigators = spent so=20 much time collecting numbers, but never subjected them to any real=20 statistical=20 = analysis.</SPAN></FONT></DIV><BR><DIV><FONT=20 color=3D#800000 face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 = class=3D980573612-20022002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DI= V><BR><DIV><FONT=20 color=3D#800000 face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D980573612-20022002>Finally, consider the objectives: to = associate=20 AVPU with GCS, presumably because AVPU is easier, and GCS only works = with=20 trained practitioners; however, within the conclusion&nbsp;and=20 discussion, it is repeatedly suggested that AVPU suffers from a lack = of an=20 objective assessment guideline, and practitioners of AVPU are=20 undertrained.&nbsp; If you're going to go to all that effort to = improve=20 upon a tool which is so clearly inferior to GCS, why not simply = improve the=20 utilization of=20 GCS?</SPAN></FONT></DIV><BR><DIV><FONT=20 color=3D#800000 face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 = class=3D980573612-20022002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DI= V><BR><DIV><FONT=20 color=3D#800000 face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN = class=3D980573612-20022002>On=20 and on, round and=20 = round...</SPAN></FONT></DIV><BR><DIV><FONT=20 color=3D#800000 face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 = class=3D980573612-20022002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DI= V><BR><DIV><FONT=20 color=3D#800000 face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 = class=3D980573612-20022002>Pret</SPAN></FONT></DIV><= BR><DIV><FONT=20 color=3D#800000 face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 = class=3D980573612-20022002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DI= V><BR><DIV><FONT=20 color=3D#800000 face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D980573612-20022002></SPAN></FONT><FONT = face=3DTahoma=20 = size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV><BR><DIV><FONT=20 face=3DTahoma size=3D2>----Original=20 Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Laurie=20 [mailto:ggh@bentonrea.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> = Tuesday,=20 February 19, 2002 9:04 PM<BR><B>To:</B>=20 trauma-list@trauma.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Fw: = ORIGINS OF=20 = APUV<BR><BR></DIV><BR><BLOCKQUOTE></FONT><B= R><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR><DIV><BR></DIV><= BR><DIV>Dear=20 = Pret,</DIV><BR><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR><DIV>Atta= ched=20 you will find the answer to your quest.=20 = </DIV><BR><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR><DIV>Laurie=20 Grimes</DIV><BR><DIV>Research=20 = fiend<BR></DIV><BR><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>= ;&nbsp;<A=20 = href=http://www.trauma.org/index.php/community/list/url/http:list.ftech.net/pipermail/trauma-list/2002/3D"http://www.google.com/search?q=3Dcache:KbAYukdct-oC:www.basics.fr= eewire.co.uk/Templates/DLMar00/9919.pdf+neurological+assessment+tool+%27A= PUV%22&amp;hl=3Den">http://www.google.com/search?q=3Dcache:KbAYukd= ct-oC:www.basics.freewire.co.uk/Templates/DLMar00/9919.pdf+neurological+a= ssessment+tool+%27APUV%22&amp;hl=3Den</A>=20 </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><p><br><hr=20 size=3D1><b>Do You Yahoo!?</b><br><BR><a=20 href=http://www.trauma.org/index.php/community/list/url/http:list.ftech.net/pipermail/trauma-list/2002/3D"http://sports.yahoo.com/oly">Yahoo! Sports</a> - = Coverage of=20 the 2002 Olympic=20 = Games<BR>--0-1499779953-1014385755=3D:4594--<BR><BR><BR>--__--__--<BR><BR= >Message:=20 4<BR>Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 21:00:09 +0200 (IST)<BR>From: Avi Roy = Shapira=20 <avir@bgumail.bgu.ac.il><BR>To: = trauma-list@trauma.org<BR>Subject: Re:=20 Burn patients.<BR>Reply-To: trauma-list@trauma.org<BR><BR><BR>Give = iv=20 morphine. My practice is to dilute 10 mg in 9 ml of saline, in = a<BR>10 ml=20 syringe, give 3-5 iv push, and then add mg by mg until pain=20 free.<BR><BR>Repeat as needed.<BR><BR>Avi<BR><BR><BR>On Thu, 21 Feb = 2002,=20 Alejandro Cabrera , M.D. wrote:<BR><BR>> Hy:<BR>> We've been = flying a=20 few patients with 90%(+) BSP burns of second and third<BR>> = degree, and,=20 some bettween 50 and 90% and I was wondering which are your<BR>>=20 protocols for pain management obviously they were intubate because=20 airway<BR>> burned , the place where we flew from has no = ABG's =20 (little town) , but one<BR>> of them with more than 90% with = renal=20 failure, and, coagulopathy.<BR>> I know it's not life compatible = but we=20 must do the best we can, what do you<BR>> suggest?<BR>> = Alejandro=20 Cabrera, M.D.<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> --<BR>> trauma-list = :=20 TRAUMA.ORG<BR>> To change your settings or unsubscribe = visit:<BR>>=20 = http://www.trauma.org/traumalist.html<BR>><BR><BR>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<BR>Aviel=20 Roy-Shapira,=20 = M.D. &nb= sp; =20 Soroka University Hospital &<BR>Dept. of Surgery A.=20 = and &nbs= p; =20 Ben-Gurion University Medical School<BR>the Critical Care=20 = Unit &nb= sp; =20 POB 151, Beer Sheva,=20 = Israel<BR><BR>email:avir@bgumail.bgu.ac.il &= nbsp; =20 Fax:972-7-6403260=20 = voice:972-7-6403390<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>--__--__--<BR><BR>Message:=20 5<BR>From: "Bjorn, Pret" <pbjorn@emh.org><BR>To:=20 "'trauma-list@trauma.org'" = <trauma-list@trauma.org><BR>Subject: RE:=20 Burn patients.<BR>Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 14:08:39 -0500<BR>Reply-To: = trauma-list@trauma.org<BR><BR>Us too. Morphine. Lots and = lots of=20 Morphine. Given by the tens if<BR>necessary.<BR><BR>Pret = Bjorn,=20 RN<BR>Bangor, ME =20 = USA<BR><BR><BR>email:avir@bgumail.bgu.ac.il = =20 Fax:972-7-6403260 = voice:972-7-6403390<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>--<BR>trauma-list :=20 TRAUMA.ORG<BR>To change your settings or unsubscribe=20 = visit:<BR>http://www.trauma.org/traumalist.html<BR><BR><BR>--__--__--<BR>= <BR>Message:=20 6<BR>From: "MARK FORREST" <atacc.doc@virgin.net><BR>To:=20 <trauma-list@trauma.org><BR>Subject: Re: PANCREATIC TRAUMA - = more info=20 to ICU guys<BR>Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 00:31:29 -0000<BR>Reply-To:=20 trauma-list@trauma.org<BR><BR>This is a multi-part message in MIME=20 = format.<BR><BR>------=3D_NextPart_000_009C_01C1BB38.454B25C0<BR>Content-T= ype:=20 = multipart/alternative;<BR>boundary=3D"----=3D_NextPart_001_009D_01C1BB38.= 454B25C0"<BR><BR><BR>------=3D_NextPart_001_009D_01C1BB38.454B25C0<BR>Con= tent-Type:=20 text/plain;<BR>charset=3D"iso-8859-1"<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding:=20 quoted-printable<BR><BR>Dear Alster,<BR>Thank you for the additional = info.=20 Both of these patients clearly had =3D<BR>something catastrophic = going on in=20 their abdomens. These kind of numbers =3D<BR>are very severe and = will have=20 been rising for some time. To me they =3D<BR>clearly indicate major = ischaemia,=20 even allowing for ARF, and the need =3D<BR>for urgent laparotomy = (which would=20 probably demonstrate =3D<BR>ischaemic/infarcted bowel)<BR>Although a = fan of=20 high flux HF or HDF in sepsis, it will not salvage =3D<BR>patients = like this=20 who need surgical intervention. Such renal therapies =3D<BR>merely = put the=20 'brakes' on the numbers and mask the severity of the = =3D<BR>condition until it=20 is too late.<BR><BR>The second case appears to have developed = overwhelming=20 ARDS as a result =3D<BR>of the initial insult, the subsequent = abdominal=20 inflammation and =3D<BR>possibly overzealous fluid resuscitation in = obvious=20 SIRS. In our unit we =3D<BR>firmly believe that the battle is often = lost=20 pre-hospital or in resus =3D<BR>where patients are over-filled with = resus=20 fluid, before theatre and more =3D<BR>fluid, before blood = transfusion and then=20 finally ITU after 10-20 litres =3D<BR>of fluid for an initial true = blood loss=20 of maybe 2 litres.....LESS FLUID =3D<BR>IS = BEST!?...discuss!<BR><BR>Hopefully,=20 as the concept of permissive hypotension, small volume = =3D<BR>resuscitation=20 and hypertonics becomes more frequently practised, then =3D<BR>the = struggles=20 of the intensivists will be reduced.<BR>Evidence base? How can an=20 intensivist prove that the amount of fluid =3D<BR>given at the = roadside etc=20 will alter outcome after ? 10 days of ITU care =3D<BR>and all of its = therapies=20 and variables?<BR>Any more information Alster?<BR>Regards<BR>Mark=20 F<BR>Intensivist with 'pruned' patients.....?more ARF but less ARDS, = =3D<BR>fortunately I can easily treat the former!<BR> ----- = Original=20 Message -----=3D20<BR> From: alster=3D20<BR> To:=20 trauma-list@trauma.org=3D20<BR> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, = 2002 11:20=20 PM<BR> Subject: Re: PANCREATIC TRAUMA - more info to ICU=20 guys<BR><BR><BR> Greetings list!<BR><BR> Thank you all = for your=20 input. Well let me give you additional info:<BR><BR> 26 Y/O = white=20 latin male was victim of a gunshot wound in the RUQ =3D<BR>exiting = on the back=20 (lumbar level).=3D20<BR> Trauma to the pancreas (Grade III - = caudal=20 pancreatectomy performed), =3D<BR>Stomach (Grade II - sutured), = Spleen=20 (nothing done -Grade I), Diaphragm =3D<BR>(sutured) and mesentery = (sutured).=20 Pancreatic fistula (400ml/day from =3D<BR>day 5 till 10th Post Op = day). U/S=20 showed no collections elsewhere. No =3D<BR>fever.<BR> = Suddenly, at the=20 12th POp day he was in abdominal pain with no relief =3D<BR>to = analgesics.=20 Plus there was a leucocytosis 15.000 (B=3D3D7% S=3D3D70%).<BR> = We ordered=20 a CT but 12h later he had to be admitted to ICU because of = =3D<BR>ARDS. His=20 oxymetry saturation reached 30% at best with FiO2=3D3D100%. He = =3D<BR>died in 4=20 hours.<BR><BR> ABGs: Basically metabolic acidosis with = increased anion=20 gap. I better =3D<BR>look his chart over again.<BR> CRProtein = =3D3D=20 100.000 (nl<5). Lactate 20.<BR><BR> 19Y/O white latin = female was=20 also victim of a gunshot wound on the =3D<BR>back exiting at = epigastric level.=20 She got a ride from her boyfriend who =3D<BR>was driving a = motorcycle when 2=20 other guys in a car tried to rob him. As =3D<BR>soon as he = accelerated, trying=20 to run away, his girlfriend was shot on =3D<BR>the back and he = suffered only=20 scratches in his right arm There was a =3D<BR>trauma to the tail of = the=20 pancreas.=3D20<BR> That trauma was only diagnosed by CT and = because=20 amylase levels =3D<BR>reached 549. Besides that, pt was doing fine. = Still in=20 noradrenalin but =3D<BR>going down with 0,15mcg/Kg/min.Based on CT = findings=20 and because there =3D<BR>was no ERCP available during weekends she = was taken=20 to the OR and a =3D<BR>distal pancreatectomy plus spenectomy was = performed. No=20 intraop =3D<BR>cholangiography was done. She did well till the 10th = POp day=20 when both =3D<BR>lungs got WHITE and she developed ARDS. Amylase = levels=20 diminished to =3D<BR>normal levels. Then, hepatic and renal = insufficiency. Her=20 pulse oxymetry =3D<BR>at best was 40% with FiO2=3D3D100% (last = Friday) getting=20 better when TGI =3D<BR>was instituted (80% at best). Our = hemofiltration=20 machine was broken. =3D<BR>Several U/S was done showing no = collection besides=20 18ml around the =3D<BR>pancreas. As she was unstable no post op ct = was done.=20 She had no fever. =3D<BR>Nothing.She died at the 23 Post Op day=20 (Saturday).=3D20<BR><BR> ABGs:metabolic acidosis with = increased anion=20 gap (renal failure). =3D<BR>CRProtein=3D3D255.000.=20 Lactate=3D3D50<BR><BR><BR> ----- Original Message=20 -----=3D20<BR> From: MARK = FORREST=3D20<BR> =20 To: trauma-list@trauma.org=3D20<BR> Sent: Tuesday, = February=20 12, 2002 5:08 PM<BR> Subject: Re: PANCREATIC = TRAUMA - What=20 are we missing?<BR><BR><BR> Dear=20 Alster,<BR> Any more information for the = non-surgical=20 members.=3D20<BR> Very interested in the amount = and type of=20 fluid given during =3D<BR>resuscitation and inevitable SIRS period = after=20 surgery.<BR><BR> Surprised that deteriorations = were so=20 rapid as although surgical =3D<BR>conditions can develop rapidly, = the ARDS=20 picture is far more likely to =3D<BR>have been developing over = several=20 days.<BR><BR> Any ABGs, CRPs, lactates prior to=20 deterioration?<BR><BR> Mark = F=3D20<BR> ITU=20 Cons,UK<BR> ----- Original Message=20 -----=3D20<BR> From:=20 alster=3D20<BR> To:=20 trauma-list@trauma.org=3D20<BR> Sent: = Monday,=20 February 11, 2002 10:35 PM<BR> = Subject:=20 PANCREATIC TRAUMA - What are we=20 missing?<BR><BR><BR> Hello=20 List!=3D20<BR> Where do we go from=20 here?<BR><BR> 26 Y/O white latin male = was=20 victim of a gunshot wound in the RUQ =3D<BR>exiting on the back = (lumbar=20 level).=3D20<BR> Trauma to the = pancreas (Grade=20 III - caudal pancreatectomy =3D<BR>performed), Stomach (Grade II - = sutured),=20 Spleen (nothing done -Grade =3D<BR>I), Diaphragm (sutured) and = mesentery=20 (sutured). Pancreatic fistula =3D<BR>(400ml/day from day 5 till 10th = Post Op=20 day). U/S showed no collections =3D<BR>elsewhere. No=20 fever.<BR> Suddenly, at the 12th POp = day he=20 was in abdominal pain with no =3D<BR>relief to analgesics. Plus = there was a=20 leucocytosis 15.000 (B=3D3D7% = =3D<BR>S=3D3D70%).<BR> =20 We ordered a CT but 12h later he had to be admitted to ICU because = =3D<BR>of=20 ARDS. His oxymetry saturation reached 30% at best with = FiO2=3D3D100%. =3D<BR>He=20 died in 4 hours.<BR><BR> 19Y/O white = latin=20 female was also victim of a gunshot wound on the =3D<BR>back exiting = at=20 epigastric level. She got a ride from her boyfriend who =3D<BR>was = driving a=20 motorcycle when 2 other guys in a car tried to rob him. As = =3D<BR>soon as he=20 accelerated, trying to run away, his girlfriend was shot on = =3D<BR>the back=20 and he suffered only scratches in his right arm. There was a = =3D<BR>trauma to=20 the tail of the pancreas as showed=20 bellow:<BR> =20 =3D20<BR><BR> That trauma was only = diagnosed by=20 CT and because amylase levels =3D<BR>reached 549. Besides that, pt = was doing=20 fine. Still in noradrenalin but =3D<BR>going down with=20 0,15mcg/Kg/min.<BR> Based on CT = findings and=20 because there was no ERCP available =3D<BR>during weekends she was = taken to=20 the OR and a distal pancreatectomy plus =3D<BR>spenectomy=20 was<BR> performed. No intraop = cholangiography=20 was done. She did well till =3D<BR>the 10th POp day when both lungs = got WHITE=20 and she developed ARDS. =3D<BR>Amylase levels diminished to normal = levels.=20 Then, hepatic and renal =3D<BR>insufficiency. Her pulse oxymetry at = best was=20 40% with FiO2=3D3D100% (last =3D<BR>Friday) getting better when TGI = was=20 instituted (80% at best). Our =3D<BR>hemofiltration machine was = broken.=20 Several U/S was done showing no =3D<BR>collection besides 18ml = around the=20 pancreas. As she was unstable no post =3D<BR>op ct was done. She had = no fever.=20 Nothing.She died at the 23 Post Op day=20 =3D<BR>(Saturday).=3D20<BR><BR> What = are we=20 missing?<BR><BR> CAlster,=20 = MD<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>------=3D_NextPart_001_009D_01C1BB38.454B25C0<BR>Co= ntent-Type:=20 text/html;<BR>charset=3D"iso-8859-1"<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding:=20 quoted-printable<BR><BR><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML = 4.0=20 Transitional//EN"><BR><HTML><HEAD><BR><META=20 http-equiv=3D3DContent-Type content=3D3D"text/html;=20 =3D<BR>charset=3D3Diso-8859-1"><BR><META content=3D3D"MSHTML = 5.50.4207.2601"=20 = name=3D3DGENERATOR><BR><STYLE></STYLE><BR></HEAD><BR= ><BODY=20 bgColor=3D3D#ffffff><BR><DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial = size=3D3D2>Dear=20 Alster,</FONT></DIV><BR><DIV><FONT = face=3D3DArial=20 size=3D3D2>Thank you for the additional info. Both =3D<BR>of=20 these=3D20<BR>patients clearly had something catastrophic going on = in their=20 abdomens. =3D<BR>These=3D20<BR>kind of numbers are very severe and = will have=20 been rising for some time. =3D<BR>To me=3D20<BR>they clearly = indicate major=20 ischaemia, even allowing for ARF, and the =3D<BR>need = for=3D20<BR>urgent=20 laparotomy (which would probably demonstrate=20 = ischaemic/infarcted=3D20<BR>bowel)</FONT></DIV><BR><DIV>= ;<FONT=20 face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Although a fan of high flux HF or HDF = =3D<BR>in=20 sepsis, it=3D20<BR>will not salvage patients like this who need = surgical=20 intervention. Such =3D<BR>renal=3D20<BR>therapies merely put the = 'brakes' on the=20 numbers and mask the severity =3D<BR>of the=3D20<BR>condition until = it is too=20 late.</FONT></DIV><BR><DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial = = size=3D3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV><BR><DIV><FONT = face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>The second case appears to have=20 =3D<BR>developed=3D20<BR>overwhelming ARDS as a result of the = initial insult,=20 the subsequent =3D<BR>abdominal=3D20<BR>inflammation and possibly = overzealous=20 fluid resuscitation in obvious =3D<BR>SIRS. In=3D20<BR>our unit we = firmly=20 believe that the battle is often lost pre-hospital or = =3D<BR>in=3D20<BR>resus=20 where patients are over-filled with resus fluid, before theatre = =3D<BR>and=20 more=3D20<BR>fluid, before blood transfusion and then finally ITU = after 10-20=20 litres =3D<BR>of fluid=3D20<BR>for an initial true blood loss of = maybe 2=20 litres.....LESS FLUID=20 = IS=3D20<BR>BEST!?...discuss!</FONT></DIV><BR><DIV><F= ONT=20 face=3D3DArial=20 = size=3D3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV><BR><DIV><FONT = face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Hopefully, as the concept of permissive = =3D<BR><BR>hypotension, small volume resuscitation and hypertonics = becomes=20 more =3D<BR>frequently=3D20<BR>practised, then the struggles of the = intensivists=20 will be = =3D<BR>reduced.</FONT></DIV><BR><DIV><FONT=20 face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Evidence base? How can an intensivist = =3D<BR>prove=20 that=3D20<BR>the amount of&nbsp;fluid given at the roadside etc = will alter=20 outcome =3D<BR>after ? 10=3D20<BR>days of ITU care and all of its = therapies and=20 variables?</FONT></DIV><BR><DIV><FONT = face=3D3DArial=20 size=3D3D2>Any more information=20 =3D<BR>Alster?</FONT></DIV><BR><DIV><FONT = face=3D3DArial=20 = size=3D3D2>Regards</FONT></DIV><BR><DIV><FONT=20 face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Mark=20 F</FONT></DIV><BR><DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial=20 size=3D3D2>Intensivist with 'pruned' =3D<BR>patients.....?more = ARF=3D20<BR>but=20 less ARDS, fortunately I can easily treat the=20 former!</FONT></DIV><BR><BLOCKQUOTE=20 dir=3D3Dltr=3D20<BR>style=3D3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: = 5px; MARGIN-LEFT:=20 5px; =3D<BR>BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: = 0px"><BR> =20 <DIV style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- = </DIV><BR> <DIV=3D20<BR> style=3D3D"BACKGROUND: = #e4e4e4;=20 FONT: 10pt arial; font-color:=20 =3D<BR>black"><B>From:</B>=3D20<BR> <A=20 title=3D3Dalster@usp.br = href=3D3D"mailto:alster@usp.br">alster</A>=20 =3D<BR></DIV><BR> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt=20 arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20 =3D<BR>title=3D3Dtrauma-list@trauma.org=3D20<BR> =20 = href=3D3D"mailto:trauma-list@trauma.org">trauma-list@trauma.org</A&= gt;=20 =3D<BR></DIV><BR> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt=20 arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, February 20, = =3D<BR>2002=20 11:20=3D20<BR> PM</DIV><BR> <DIV = style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt=20 arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: PANCREATIC TRAUMA =3D<BR>- = more=3D20<BR> info to ICU guys</DIV><BR> =20 <DIV><BR></DIV><BR> <DIV><FONT = face=3D3DArial=20 size=3D3D2>Greetings list!</FONT></DIV><BR> =20 <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial=20 size=3D3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV><BR> =20 <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Thank you = all&nbsp;for your=20 input. =3D<BR>Well let me=3D20<BR> give you additional=20 info:</FONT></DIV><BR> <DIV><FONT = face=3D3DArial=20 size=3D3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV><BR> =20 <DIV><BR> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial=20 size=3D3D1><STRONG>26 Y/O white latin male was = =3D<BR>victim of=20 a=3D20<BR> gunshot wound in the RUQ exiting&nbsp;on the = back=20 (lumbar&nbsp;level). =3D<BR><BR> =20 </STRONG></FONT></DIV><BR> = <DIV><FONT=20 face=3D3DArial size=3D3D1><STRONG>Trauma to the pancreas = (Grade=20 =3D<BR>III -=3D20<BR> caudal pancreatectomy performed), = Stomach (Grade II=20 - sutured), Spleen =3D<BR><BR> (nothing done -Grade I), = Diaphragm=20 (sutured) and mesentery (sutured).=3D20<BR> Pancreatic fistula = (400ml/day from day 5 till 10th Post Op day). U/S =3D<BR>showed=20 no=3D20<BR> collections elsewhere. No=20 fever.</STRONG></FONT></DIV><BR> = <DIV><FONT=20 face=3D3DArial size=3D3D1><STRONG>Suddenly, at the 12th POp = day =3D<BR>he=20 was in=3D20<BR> abdominal pain&nbsp;with no relief to = analgesics.=20 Plus there was a=3D20<BR> leucocytosis 15.000 (B=3D3D7%=20 S=3D3D70%).</STRONG></FONT></DIV><BR> =20 <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial = size=3D3D2><STRONG><FONT=20 size=3D3D1>We ordered a =3D<BR>CT but 12h=3D20<BR> later he = had to be=20 admitted to ICU because of ARDS. His oxymetry = =3D<BR>saturation=3D20<BR> =20 reached 30% at best with FiO2=3D3D100%. He died in 4=3D20<BR> =20 = hours</FONT></STRONG>.</FONT></DIV><BR> =20 <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial=20 size=3D3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV><BR> =20 <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>ABGs: Basically = metabolic=20 acidosis =3D<BR>with increased=3D20<BR> anion gap. = I&nbsp;better look=20 his chart over again.</FONT></DIV><BR> = <DIV><FONT=20 face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>CRProtein =3D3D 100.000 (nl&lt;5).=20 =3D<BR>Lactate=3D20<BR> 20.</FONT></DIV><BR> = <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial=20 size=3D3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV><BR> =20 <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial><FONT size=3D3D1>19Y/O = white latin=20 female was =3D<BR>also victim of=3D20<BR> a gunshot wound on = the back=20 exiting at epigastric level. She got a =3D<BR>ride = from=3D20<BR> her=20 boyfriend who was driving a&nbsp;motorcycle&nbsp;when 2 = other guys=20 =3D<BR>in a=3D20<BR> car tried to rob him. As soon as he = accelerated,=20 trying to run away, =3D<BR>his=3D20<BR> girlfriend was shot on = the back=20 and he suffered only scratches in his =3D<BR>right=3D20<BR> = arm There was=20 a trauma to the tail of the pancreas. </FONT><BR> =20 <DIV><FONT size=3D3D1>That trauma was only diagnosed by = CT and=20 because =3D<BR>amylase=3D20<BR> levels reached = 549.&nbsp;Besides=20 that,&nbsp;pt was doing fine. Still =3D<BR>in=3D20<BR> = noradrenalin=20 but&nbsp;going down&nbsp;with 0,15mcg/Kg/min.Based on CT=20 =3D<BR>findings=3D20<BR> and because there was no ERCP = available during=20 weekends she was taken =3D<BR>to the=3D20<BR> OR and a distal=20 pancreatectomy plus spenectomy was performed. No = =3D<BR>intraop=3D20<BR> =20 cholangiography was done. She did well till the 10th POp day=20 =3D<BR>when&nbsp;both=3D20<BR> lungs got WHITE and she = developed ARDS.=20 Amylase levels =3D<BR>diminished&nbsp;to=3D20<BR> normal = levels. Then,=20 hepatic and renal insufficiency. Her pulse =3D<BR>oxymetry = at=3D20<BR> =20 best was 40% with FiO2=3D3D100% (last Friday) getting better when = TGI=20 =3D<BR>was=3D20<BR> instituted (80% at best). Our = hemofiltration machine=20 was broken. =3D<BR>Several U/S=3D20<BR> was done showing no = collection=20 besides 18ml around the pancreas. As =3D<BR>she was=3D20<BR> = unstable no=20 post op ct was done.&nbsp;She had no = =3D<BR>fever.&nbsp;Nothing.She=20 died=3D20<BR> at the 23 Post Op day (Saturday).=20 </FONT></DIV><BR> <DIV><FONT=20 size=3D3D1></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV><BR> =20 <DIV>ABGs:metabolic acidosis with increased anion gap (renal = failure).=20 =3D<BR><BR> CRProtein=3D3D255.000.=20 Lactate=3D3D50</DIV></FONT></DIV><BR> =20 <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial=20 size=3D3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV><BR> =20 <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial=20 = size=3D3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></DIV><BR> =20 <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3D3Dltr=3D20<BR> style=3D3D"PADDING-RIGHT: = 0px;=20 PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =3D<BR>BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px = solid;=20 MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><BR> <DIV = style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt=20 arial">----- Original Message ----- = </DIV><BR> =20 <DIV=3D20<BR> style=3D3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; = FONT: 10pt=20 arial; font-color:=20 =3D<BR>black"><B>From:</B>=3D20<BR> = <A=20 title=3D3Datacc.doc@virgin.net=20 = =3D<BR>href=3D3D"mailto:atacc.doc@virgin.net">MARK=3D20<BR>  = ; =20 FORREST</A> </DIV><BR> <DIV = style=3D3D"FONT:=20 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20 =3D<BR>title=3D3Dtrauma-list@trauma.org=3D20<BR> =20 = href=3D3D"mailto:trauma-list@trauma.org">trauma-list@trauma.org</A&= gt;=20 =3D<BR></DIV><BR> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT: = 10pt=20 arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, February 12, =3D<BR>2002 = 5:08=3D20<BR> PM</DIV><BR> = <DIV=20 style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: = PANCREATIC=20 =3D<BR>TRAUMA - What=3D20<BR> are we=20 missing?</DIV><BR> =20 <DIV><BR></DIV><BR> = <DIV><FONT=20 face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Dear=20 Alster,</FONT></DIV><BR> = <DIV><FONT=20 face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Any more information for the=20 =3D<BR>non-surgical=3D20<BR> members.=20 </FONT></DIV><BR> <DIV><FONT=20 face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Very interested in the amount and = =3D<BR>type of=20 fluid=3D20<BR> given during resuscitation and = inevitable=20 SIRS period after=3D20<BR> =20 surgery.</FONT></DIV><BR> = <DIV><FONT=20 face=3D3DArial=20 = size=3D3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV><BR> =20 <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Surprised that = deteriorations=20 were =3D<BR>so rapid as=3D20<BR> although surgical = conditions=20 can develop rapidly, the ARDS picture =3D<BR>is = far=3D20<BR> =20 more likely to have been developing over several=20 days.</FONT></DIV><BR> = <DIV><FONT=20 face=3D3DArial=20 = size=3D3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV><BR> =20 <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Any ABGs, CRPs, = lactates prior=20 to=3D20<BR> =20 deterioration?</FONT></DIV><BR> =20 <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial=20 = size=3D3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV><BR> =20 <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Mark F=20 </FONT></DIV><BR> <DIV><FONT=20 face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>ITU=20 Cons,UK</FONT></DIV><BR> = <BLOCKQUOTE=20 dir=3D3Dltr=3D20<BR> style=3D3D"PADDING-RIGHT: = 0px;=20 PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =3D<BR>BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px = solid;=20 MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><BR> <DIV=20 style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----=20 =3D<BR></DIV><BR> =20 <DIV=3D20<BR> = style=3D3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4;=20 FONT: 10pt arial; font-color:=20 = =3D<BR>black"><B>From:</B>=3D20<BR>  = ; =20 <A title=3D3Dalster@usp.br=20 href=3D3D"mailto:alster@usp.br">alster</A>=20 =3D<BR></DIV><BR> <DIV = style=3D3D"FONT:=20 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20 = =3D<BR>title=3D3Dtrauma-list@trauma.org=3D20<BR> &= nbsp;=20 = href=3D3D"mailto:trauma-list@trauma.org">trauma-list@trauma.org</A&= gt;=20 =3D<BR></DIV><BR> <DIV = style=3D3D"FONT:=20 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, February 11, = =3D<BR>2002=20 10:35=3D20<BR> =20 PM</DIV><BR> <DIV = style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt=20 arial"><B>Subject:</B> PANCREATIC TRAUMA =3D<BR>- = What=20 are=3D20<BR> we=20 missing?</DIV><BR> = <DIV><FONT=20 face=3D3DArial=20 = size=3D3D2></FONT><BR></DIV><BR> &n= bsp; =20 <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Hello List!=20 </FONT></DIV><BR> =20 <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Where do we go from = = =3D<BR>here?</FONT></DIV><BR> =20 <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial=20 = size=3D3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV><BR> &n= bsp; =20 <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>26 Y/O white latin = male was=20 =3D<BR>victim of a=3D20<BR> gunshot = wound in the=20 RUQ exiting&nbsp;on the back=20 = =3D<BR>(lumbar&nbsp;level).=3D20<BR> =20 </FONT></DIV><BR> =20 <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Trauma to the = pancreas (Grade=20 III =3D<BR>- caudal=3D20<BR> = pancreatectomy=20 performed), Stomach (Grade II - sutured), Spleen=20 =3D<BR>(nothing=3D20<BR> done -Grade = I), Diaphragm=20 (sutured) and mesentery (sutured).=20 =3D<BR>Pancreatic=3D20<BR> fistula = (400ml/day from=20 day 5 till 10th Post Op day). U/S showed=20 =3D<BR>no=3D20<BR> collections = elsewhere. No=20 fever.</FONT></DIV><BR> =20 <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Suddenly, at the = 12th POp day=20 he =3D<BR>was in=3D20<BR> abdominal=20 pain&nbsp;with no relief to analgesics. Plus there was a=20 =3D<BR><BR> leucocytosis 15.000 = (B=3D3D7%=20 = S=3D3D70%).</FONT></DIV><BR> =20 <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>We ordered a CT but = 12h later=20 he =3D<BR>had to be=3D20<BR> admitted = to ICU=20 because of ARDS. His oxymetry saturation reached =3D<BR>30%=20 at=3D20<BR> best with FiO2=3D3D100%. = He died in 4=20 hours.</FONT></DIV><BR> =20 <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial=20 = size=3D3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV><BR> &n= bsp; =20 <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>19Y/O white latin = female was=20 also =3D<BR>victim of a=3D20<BR> = gunshot wound on=20 the back exiting at epigastric level. She got a =3D<BR>ride=20 from=3D20<BR> her boyfriend who was = driving=20 a&nbsp;motorcycle&nbsp;when 2 other =3D<BR>guys=20 in=3D20<BR> a car tried to rob him. As = soon as=20 he accelerated, trying to run =3D<BR>away,=20 his=3D20<BR> girlfriend was shot on = the back and=20 he suffered only scratches in = =3D<BR>his=3D20<BR> =20 right arm. There was a trauma to the tail of the pancreas as=20 =3D<BR>showed=3D20<BR> =20 = bellow:</FONT></DIV><IMG=3D20<BR> &= nbsp;=20 alt=3D3D"Will you operated on this pt based on CT findings?"=20 =3D<BR>hspace=3D3D0=3D20<BR> =20 src=3D3D"cid:009a01c1bb38$44ee11a0$70d1fc3e@oemcomputer"=20 = =3D<BR>border=3D3D0>&nbsp;<IMG=3D20<BR> = =20 alt=3D3D"What about this one?" = hspace=3D3D0=3D20<BR> =20 src=3D3D"cid:009b01c1bb38$453a5ce0$70d1fc3e@oemcomputer" = border=3D3D0>=20 =3D<BR><BR> <DIV><FONT = face=3D3DArial=20 = size=3D3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV><BR> &n= bsp; =20 <DIV>That trauma was only diagnosed by CT and because amylase=20 =3D<BR>levels=3D20<BR> reached=20 549.&nbsp;Besides that,&nbsp;pt was doing fine. Still=20 in=3D20<BR> noradrenalin = but&nbsp;going=20 down&nbsp;with=20 0,15mcg/Kg/min.</DIV><BR> =20 <DIV>Based on CT findings and because there was no ERCP = available=20 =3D<BR>during=3D20<BR> weekends she = was taken to=20 the OR and a distal pancreatectomy = plus=3D20<BR> =20 spenectomy was</DIV><BR> =20 <DIV>performed. No intraop cholangiography was done. She did = well=20 =3D<BR>till the=3D20<BR> 10th POp day=20 when&nbsp;both lungs got WHITE and she developed=20 =3D<BR>ARDS.=3D20<BR> Amylase levels=20 diminished&nbsp;to normal levels. Then, hepatic and=20 =3D<BR>renal=3D20<BR> insufficiency. = Her pulse=20 oxymetry at best was 40% with FiO2=3D3D100%=20 =3D<BR>(last=3D20<BR> Friday) getting = better when=20 TGI was instituted (80% at best). = Our=3D20<BR> =20 hemofiltration machine was broken. Several U/S was done showing no=20 =3D<BR><BR> collection besides 18ml = around the=20 pancreas. As she was unstable =3D<BR>no=20 post=3D20<BR> op ct was = done.&nbsp;She had=20 no fever.&nbsp;Nothing.She died at =3D<BR>the=20 23=3D20<BR> Post Op day (Saturday).=20 </DIV><BR> =20 <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR> =20 <DIV>What are we=20 missing?</DIV><BR> =20 <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR> =20 <DIV>CAlster, MD</DIV><BR> = <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial=20 = size=3D3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV><BR> &n= bsp; =20 <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial=20 = size=3D3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV><BR> &n= bsp; =20 <DIV><FONT=20 = face=3D3DArial=3D20<BR>size=3D3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>&= lt;/BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY=3D<BR>&= gt;</HTML><BR><BR>------=3D_NextPart_001_009D_01C1BB38.454B25C0--<B= R><BR>------=3D_NextPart_000_009C_01C1BB38.454B25C0<BR>Content-Type:=20 image/jpeg;<BR>name=3D"masimone.jpg"<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding:=20 base64<BR>Content-ID:=20 = <009a01c1bb38$44ee11a0$70d1fc3e@oemcomputer><BR><BR>/9j/4AAQSkZJRgA= BAgEASABIAAD/7RBUUGhvdG9zaG9wIDMuMAA4QklNA+0AAAAAABAASAAAAAEA<BR>AgBIAAAA= 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explanation.... try yours in<BR>reverse!<BR><BR>Like = this:<BR>Seizure=20 activity > Anoxia > Cardiac ischemia > V-fib<BR><BR>In = addition,=20 reading V-fib on a monitor during seizure activity can = be<BR>dangerous.=20 Treating your patient (meaning check for pulses) is probably=20 more<BR>critical then reading the monitor.<BR><BR>Turn this into a = further=20 discussion by asking, at times finding a pulse may<BR>be difficult = during=20 seizure activity, so would you first give a med (benzo<BR>or other = relaxant)=20 and intubate or would you jump to ACLS and Shock = Shock<BR>Shock?<BR><BR>Take=20 care.<BR>Nick<BR><BR>P.S. Your right, this is not really a trauma=20 discussion, other then what if<BR>the seizure was caused by head = injury=20 leading to this crashing spiral?<BR><BR>____<BR>Nick Nudell,=20 NREMT-P<BR>Glacier County EMS<BR>www.glacierems.com<BR>Northern = Rockies=20 Medical Center<BR>Cut Bank, = MT<BR>nick@glacierems.com<BR><BR><BR><BR>-----=20 Original Message -----<BR>From: <Nappio@aol.com><BR>To:=20 <trauma-list@trauma.org><BR>Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2002 = 4:38=20 PM<BR>Subject: Re: v-fib seizure<BR><BR><BR>> = ATTENTION:<BR>><BR>>=20 V-fib > Anoxia = > =20 Ischemic brain hit > seizure=20 activity<BR>><BR>> Mr. Ramstrom, Mr. Clopp asked the = rhetorical=20 "stupid question" if you<BR>will,<BR>> and stated the truth about = his=20 knowledge deficit,,but at least he stepped<BR>> forth and = asked the=20 question so he wouldnt be just a cook book ambulance<BR>> = driver.If you=20 want to eliminate the negative attitudes you speak of = you<BR>have<BR>> to=20 accept the fact that there are cook book ambulance drivers who need=20 to<BR>be<BR>> educated.<BR>> DN<BR>><BR>> --<BR>> = trauma-list=20 : TRAUMA.ORG<BR>> To change your settings or unsubscribe = visit:<BR>>=20 = http://www.trauma.org/traumalist.html<BR>><BR><BR><BR><BR>--__--__--<B= R><BR>Message:=20 8<BR>Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 14:21:09 +1100<BR>From: "Ian Seppelt"=20 <SeppelI@wahs.nsw.gov.au><BR>To:=20 <trauma-list@trauma.org><BR>Subject: Re: v-fib = seizure<BR>Reply-To:=20 trauma-list@trauma.org<BR><BR>"v-fib seizure" - never heard of = it.<BR>These=20 patients had a primary cardiac arrest and then a secondary hypoxic=20 =3D<BR>seizure - treatment is just as you indicated with = defibrillation and=20 oxyg=3D<BR>en.<BR><BR>Cheers, Ian<BR><BR>Ian Seppelt<BR>Nepean = Hospital,=20 Sydney.<BR><BR>>>> CrnbryEMT@aol.com 02/22/02 06:35am=20 >>><BR>Many apologies for tossing this to a tramua list=20 ...<BR><BR>Does anyone have information on such a thing as a "v-fib=20 seizure"? In my =3D<BR>short experience I have been called to at = least one=20 patient that had seiz=3D<BR>ure activity followed by cardiac arrest = (initial=20 rhythm: v-fib) with no s=3D<BR>eizure history. I've been told by = many that the=20 person must have had a "v=3D<BR>-fib seizure".<BR><BR>Is this a = seizure that=20 precipitates v-fib? V-vib that initially causes so=3D<BR>me sort of = hypoxic=20 seizure? As a Paramedic my treatment is ultimately = the=3D<BR>=3D20same: CPR and=20 ACLS appropriate to the presenting rhythm ... I just go =3D<BR>up a = tree when=20 I don't know "why".<BR><BR>Thanks.<BR><BR>-Greg Clopp,=20 MICP<BR><BR>--<BR>trauma-list : TRAUMA.ORG<BR>To change your = settings or=20 unsubscribe=20 = visit:<BR>http://www.trauma.org/traumalist.html<BR><BR>##################= ####################################################<BR>Attention:=3D20<B= R>This=20 message is intended for the addresses named and may=20 contain=3D20<BR>confidential information. If you are not the = intended=20 recipient, please<BR>delete it and notify the sender. Views = expressed in=20 this message are=3D20<BR>those of the individual sender, and are not = necessarily the views of=3D20<BR>Wentworth Area Health=20 Service.<BR><BR><BR>This e-mail has been scanned for=20 = viruses<BR>##############################################################= ########<BR><BR><BR>--__--__--<BR><BR><BR><BR>--__--__--<BR><BR>Message: = 10<BR>From: "Ian Cross" <ian_ff@hotmail.com><BR>To:=20 trauma-list@trauma.org<BR>Subject: Tension Pneumothorax<BR>Date: = Fri, 22 Feb=20 2002 14:32:49 +0000<BR>Reply-To: trauma-list@trauma.org<BR><BR>I'm a = fire-fighter working in a very rural community. We don't see=20 that<BR>much trauma, but on occasions the country roads have a habit = of=20 exposing<BR>some nasty injuries.<BR><BR>We have just been through = the=20 trapped occupant/tension pneumothorax<BR>experience.<BR><BR>having = read as=20 much as I can on this subject, (with the small amount = of<BR>literature I=20 have available).<BR><BR>The signs of a developing T.P. are well = described=20 and the procedure of<BR>needle decompression is also<BR>well=20 described.<BR><BR>However it is mentioned by those in the emergency = services=20 (paramedics who<BR>we occasionally get to chat with).<BR><BR>Needle=20 decompression is only successful in about 40% of cases, - fat = cells<BR>are=20 jammed into the cannula<BR>In needle decompression the 'classical = hiss of=20 air being released' is often<BR>not present.<BR>In T.P. the lung = will not=20 re-inflate once the tension has been relieved.<BR><BR>Is all the = above=20 correct ?<BR><BR>If so how would one know that the decompression has = worked=20 ?<BR><BR>Does the increasing respiratory rate, slow down, does the=20 respiratory rate<BR>decrease ?<BR><BR>The the patients anxiety and = distress=20 reduce ?<BR><BR>i can find no literaturew that describes the outcome = of=20 successful<BR>decompression and as yet no one to answer my=20 questions.<BR><BR>Can someone please help. Not that we would = be in a=20 position to provide this<BR>procedure for a patient, it is just a = question=20 that I find very interesting<BR>and cannot find an = answer.<BR><BR>Ian=20 Greaves, Fire-fighter, The highlands of=20 = Scotland<BR><BR><BR><BR>_________________________________________________= ________________<BR>MSN=20 Photos is the easiest way to share and print your=20 = photos:<BR>http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx<BR><BR><BR><BR>--= __--__--<BR><BR>Message:=20 11<BR>From: FtLaudALSTeam@aol.com<BR>Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 15:50:37 = EST<BR>Subject: Re: v-fib seizure<BR>To: = trauma-list@trauma.org<BR>Reply-To:=20 = trauma-list@trauma.org<BR><BR><BR>--part1_51.1989bd8a.29a8091d_boundary<B= R>Content-Type:=20 text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII"<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding:=20 7bit<BR><BR><BR> Mr. Ramstrom, = your=20 apology is well taken and I admire you for<BR>responding and the way = you=20 responded. It is well taken. Have a good day.<BR><BR>Jorge Aguiar=20 FF/PM<BR>Ft. Lauderdale=20 = Fire/Rescue<BR><BR>--part1_51.1989bd8a.29a8091d_boundary<BR>Content-Type:= =20 text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII"<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding:=20 7bit<BR><BR><HTML><FONT = FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT =20 COLOR=3D"#0000ff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Century = Gothic"=20 = LANG=3D"0"><BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&= nbsp;&nbsp;=20 Mr. Ramstrom, your apology is well taken and I admire you for = responding and=20 the way you responded. It is well taken. Have a good=20 day.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Jorge Aguiar FF/PM<BR><BR>Ft.=20 Lauderdale=20 = Fire/Rescue</FONT></HTML><BR><BR>--part1_51.1989bd8a.29a8091d= _boundary--<BR><BR><BR>--__--__--<BR><BR>Message:=20 12<BR>From: "Bjorn, Pret" <pbjorn@emh.org><BR>To:=20 "'trauma-list@trauma.org'" = <trauma-list@trauma.org><BR>Subject: RE:=20 v-fib seizure<BR>Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 15:59:04 -0500<BR>Reply-To:=20 trauma-list@trauma.org<BR><BR>Nick,<BR><BR>Absolutely possible, but = uncommon=20 and unlikely. Anoxia most frequently<BR>leads to bradycardia, = not=20 VF. And although I agree that you should treat<BR>the patient, = not the=20 monitor, I can recall at least one case of a teenage<BR>girl with = Long QT=20 who was treated for several minutes as a seizure before<BR>anyone = checked=20 her pulse OR rhythm (Torsades). Leaves a bad taste.<BR><BR>I = think=20 that most folks who have witnessed a conscious patient=20 suffering<BR>sudden-onset VF would agree that the physical = manifestations=20 could fairly be<BR>mistaken for seizure activity. This more = clearly=20 speaks to the original<BR>post: sudden death is rarely = subtle.<BR><BR>Best=20 Regards,<BR><BR>Pret<BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: Nick = Nudell=20 [mailto:nick@glacierems.com]<BR>Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2002 = 7:59=20 PM<BR>To: trauma-list@trauma.org<BR>Subject: Re: v-fib = seizure<BR><BR><BR>I=20 think there is more then one plausible explanation.... try yours=20 in<BR>reverse!<BR><BR>Like this:<BR>Seizure activity > Anoxia = >=20 Cardiac ischemia > V-fib<BR><BR>In addition, reading V-fib on a = monitor=20 during seizure activity can be<BR>dangerous. Treating your patient = (meaning=20 check for pulses) is probably more<BR>critical then reading the=20 monitor.<BR><BR>Turn this into a further discussion by asking, at = times=20 finding a pulse may<BR>be difficult during seizure activity, so = would you=20 first give a med (benzo<BR>or other relaxant) and intubate or would = you jump=20 to ACLS and Shock Shock<BR>Shock?<BR><BR>Take = care.<BR>Nick<BR><BR>P.S. Your=20 right, this is not really a trauma discussion, other then what = if<BR>the=20 seizure was caused by head injury leading to this crashing=20 spiral?<BR><BR>____<BR>Nick Nudell, NREMT-P<BR>Glacier County=20 EMS<BR>www.glacierems.com<BR>Northern Rockies Medical Center<BR>Cut = Bank,=20 MT<BR>nick@glacierems.com<BR><BR><BR><BR>----- Original Message=20 -----<BR>From: <Nappio@aol.com><BR>To:=20 <trauma-list@trauma.org><BR>Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2002 = 4:38=20 PM<BR>Subject: Re: v-fib seizure<BR><BR><BR>> = ATTENTION:<BR>><BR>>=20 V-fib > Anoxia = > =20 Ischemic brain hit > seizure=20 activity<BR>><BR>> Mr. Ramstrom, Mr. Clopp asked the = rhetorical=20 "stupid question" if you<BR>will,<BR>> and stated the truth about = his=20 knowledge deficit,,but at least he stepped<BR>> forth and = asked the=20 question so he wouldnt be just a cook book ambulance<BR>> = driver.If you=20 want to eliminate the negative attitudes you speak of = you<BR>have<BR>> to=20 accept the fact that there are cook book ambulance drivers who need=20 to<BR>be<BR>> educated.<BR>> DN<BR>><BR>> --<BR>> = trauma-list=20 : TRAUMA.ORG<BR>> To change your settings or unsubscribe = visit:<BR>>=20 = http://www.trauma.org/traumalist.html<BR>><BR><BR><BR>--<BR>trauma-lis= t :=20 TRAUMA.ORG<BR>To change your settings or unsubscribe=20 = visit:<BR>http://www.trauma.org/traumalist.html<BR><BR><BR>--__--__--<BR>= <BR>Message:=20 13<BR>From: FtLaudALSTeam@aol.com<BR>Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 16:01:01 = EST<BR>Subject: Re:v-fib<BR>To: trauma-list@trauma.org<BR>Reply-To:=20 = trauma-list@trauma.org<BR><BR><BR>--part1_185.407c643.29a80b8d_boundary<B= R>Content-Type:=20 text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII"<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding:=20 7bit<BR><BR><BR> I work with = cook book=20 Paramedics and have to compensate for them<BR>sometimes. = Nonetheless, there=20 is no need to slam someone when he or she has<BR>the guts to go = online in a=20 forum where there are physicians and others with<BR>an acknowledged = higher=20 education and ask a question. That is just showing<BR>lack of class, = tact=20 and decency. We do not know if he is a cook book<BR>medic....all he = did was=20 ask a question. Take=20 care.<BR><BR>--part1_185.407c643.29a80b8d_boundary<BR>Content-Type:=20 text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII"<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding:=20 7bit<BR><BR><HTML><FONT = FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT =20 COLOR=3D"#0000ff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Century = Gothic"=20 = LANG=3D"0"><BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&= nbsp;&nbsp;=20 I work with cook book Paramedics and have to compensate for them = sometimes.=20 Nonetheless, there is no need to slam someone when he or she has the = guts to=20 go online in a forum where there are physicians and others with an=20 acknowledged higher education and ask a question. That is just = showing lack=20 of class, tact and decency. We do not know if he is a cook book = medic....all=20 he did was ask a question. Take care.=20 = </FONT></HTML><BR><BR>--part1_185.407c643.29a80b8d_boundary--= <BR><BR><BR><BR>--__--__--<BR><BR>--<BR>trauma-list=20 : TRAUMA.ORG<BR>To change your settings or unsubscribe=20 visit:<BR>http://www.trauma.org/traumalist.html<BR><BR>End of = trauma-list=20 Digest<BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR clear=3Dall> <HR> Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : <A=20 href=http://www.trauma.org/index.php/community/list/url/http:list.ftech.net/pipermail/trauma-list/2002/3D"http://explorer.msn.com">http://explorer.msn.com</A><BR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C1BC73.8FFA6FE0--
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