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Home > List Archives

stress(semi-long)

Terry Dinerman trauma-list@trauma.org
Thu, 6 Jun 2002 10:32:18 -0700


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Ms. R-

As is often the case, you can only get to the core of an issue through =
individual dialog.  You sound like a considerate, committed EMS educator =
and I would LOVE to continue a dialog offline.=20

 I have a lot to learn, and any new tricks I can bag will benefit my =
students.

Give me a holler - dinerman@computon.net=20

Regards!

T.A. Dinerman EMTP
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: KPCRP@aol.com=20
  To: trauma-list@trauma.org=20
  Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2002 6:54 AM
  Subject: Re: stress(semi-long)


  In a message dated 6/5/2002 3:00:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, =
dinerman@computron.net writes:



    <<Dear Ms. Ricky-
    What do you do with the students who just don't have the stamina to =
make the cut?  If, when you have tried your entire bag of tricks and =
still cannot get that person over the hump?>>


  I spend time working with them outside the classroom in attempts to =
remediate, or I get another Instructor involved to see if they relate =
better to them, and if that doesn't work, I tell them the bad news.  If =
they are already a practicing "***" of any flavor,=20
  I suggest they try again in another course.  If they are brand new, I =
suggest they might want to rethink their career choice and then help =
them get vocational counseling (I've only had to do this three times.); =
or, if things are overwhelming them in their personal life, and they =
simply can't dedicate the time necessary to succeed,=20
  I suggest they try get address those things first and come back late =
to try again.    =20


    <<I am going to have some tough standards, and they are quite =
simple: I expect my graduates to be competent ENTRY-LEVEL Paramedics, =
ready for entry into the graduate school of emergency medicine known as =
AN AMBULANCE.  I do not expect my grads to be Dr. Debakey (or Dr. =
Maddox). Just be a competent member of a team.>>


  I didn't think we were talking about new students in the original =
discussion.  I believe it was about stress levels in already practicing =
people, taking their alphabit courses.  However, neither do *I* expect =
new students to practice at the level of a Dr. Mattox, Fry, Matera, =
Bledsoe, etc.  (I've been practicing for 23 years and *I'm* not there, =
either<G>)                                                               =
                             =20


    <<If a Student cannot come up to my (an my institutions) =
expectations, if I wouldn't want a particular student treating my =
Mother, how can I justify NOT sending that student for evaluation and =
remediation?=20

    And if remediation fails, how can I justify NOT FAILING such a =
student?>>


  If you want an argument, you will have to pick another subject, sir.  =
I use the same criteria.

  <<<snip>=20
    My job is to teach these folks critical thinking skills under as =
life-like a set of conditions as I can re-create, so they are prepared =
to act competently at that 3 car pile-up at 3 am.=20

    How do you set standards for this?  My students can kill the =
mannequins as many times as it takes to get their skills up to par, but =
they have to be ready to work on flesh and blood when I am done with =
them.  >>


  Again, no argument.  That's our job.  MY issues are with current =
practitioners who come into an alphabit class - especially Refreshers - =
and cannot even demonstrate knowledge of the basics like cardiac =
anatomy, never mind the properties of the drugs they are out there =
already putting into patients.  It's THOSE students who seem to stress =
more than anybody and for good reason.  IMHO - they've been fooling =
themselves and their patients and they are about to get "caught". =20

  If students are prepared and mentored well, I don't see the need for =
parlayzing stress in the classroom setting for new or experienced =
students.  Finally, if you'd like to continue this, I suggest we take it =
off line.  I do think, however, you misread my intent and if you review =
it, I hope you will find we are more in agreement than you think.  If I =
did not make myself clear, you (and the list) have my apologies.

  It's time to move on - I'm going back to lurking, again<G>.

  Respectfully,

  K.P. Rickey
  NREMT-P; EMS I/C
  and other alphabits
  NH/USA






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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS">Ms. R-</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS">As is often the case, you can only get =
to the=20
core of an issue through individual dialog.&nbsp; You sound like a =
considerate,=20
committed EMS educator and I would LOVE to continue a dialog=20
offline.&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS">&nbsp;I have a lot to learn, and any =
new tricks=20
I can bag will benefit my students.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS">Give me a holler - <A=20
href=3D"mailto:dinerman@computon.net">dinerman@computon.net</A> =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS">Regards!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS">T.A. Dinerman EMTP</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3DKPCRP@aol.com =
href=3D"mailto:KPCRP@aol.com">KPCRP@aol.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dtrauma-list@trauma.org=20
  href=3D"mailto:trauma-list@trauma.org">trauma-list@trauma.org</A> =
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, June 06, 2002 =
6:54=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: =
stress(semi-long)</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT lang=3D0 =
face=3DArial size=3D2=20
  FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">In a message dated 6/5/2002 3:00:59 PM Eastern =
Standard=20
  Time, <A =
href=3D"mailto:dinerman@computron.net">dinerman@computron.net</A>=20
  writes:<BR><BR><BR></FONT><FONT lang=3D0 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: =
#ffffff"=20
  face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#000000 size=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SCRIPT">
  <BLOCKQUOTE=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"=20
  TYPE=3D"CITE">&lt;&lt;Dear Ms. Ricky-<BR>What do you do with the =
students who=20
    just don't have the stamina to make the cut?&nbsp; If, when you have =
tried=20
    your entire bag of tricks and still cannot get that person over the=20
    hump?&gt;&gt;</FONT><FONT lang=3D0 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: =
#ffffff"=20
    face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#000000 size=3D2=20
  FAMILY=3D"SCRIPT"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR></FONT><FONT lang=3D0=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 =
size=3D2=20
  FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">I spend time working with them outside the =
classroom in=20
  attempts to remediate, or I get another Instructor involved to see if =
they=20
  relate better to them, and if that doesn't work, I tell them the bad=20
  news.&nbsp; If they are already a practicing "***" of any flavor, =
<BR>I=20
  suggest they try again in another course.&nbsp; If they are brand new, =
I=20
  suggest they might want to rethink their career choice and then help =
them get=20
  vocational counseling </FONT><FONT lang=3D0 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: =
#ffffff"=20
  face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">(I've only =
had to do this=20
  three times.)</FONT><FONT lang=3D0 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" =
face=3DArial=20
  color=3D#000000 size=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">; or, if things are =
overwhelming them=20
  in their personal life, and they simply can't dedicate the time =
necessary to=20
  succeed, <BR>I suggest they try get address those things first and =
come back=20
  late to try again.&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT><FONT lang=3D0=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 =
size=3D2=20
  FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT><FONT lang=3D0=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" face=3D"Comic Sans MS" =
color=3D#000000 size=3D2=20
  FAMILY=3D"SCRIPT"><BR>
  <BLOCKQUOTE=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"=20
  TYPE=3D"CITE"><BR>&lt;&lt;I am going to have some tough standards, and =
they=20
    are quite simple: I expect my graduates to be competent =
<U>ENTRY-LEVEL</U>=20
    Paramedics, ready for entry into the graduate school of emergency =
medicine=20
    known as <U>AN AMBULANCE</U>.&nbsp; I do not expect my grads to be =
Dr.=20
    Debakey (or Dr. Maddox). Just be a competent member of a=20
    team.&gt;&gt;</FONT><FONT lang=3D0 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: =
#ffffff"=20
    face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#000000 size=3D2=20
  FAMILY=3D"SCRIPT"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR></FONT><FONT lang=3D0=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 =
size=3D2=20
  FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">I didn't think we were talking about new students =
in the=20
  original discussion.&nbsp; I believe it was about stress levels in =
already=20
  practicing people, taking their alphabit courses.&nbsp; However, =
neither do=20
  *I* expect new students to practice at the level of a Dr. Mattox, Fry, =
Matera,=20
  Bledsoe, etc.&nbsp; (I've been practicing for 23 years and *I'm* not =
there,=20
  either&lt;G&gt;)&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT><FONT lang=3D0=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" face=3D"Comic Sans MS" =
color=3D#000000 size=3D2=20
  =
FAMILY=3D"SCRIPT">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  <BR></FONT><FONT lang=3D0 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" =
face=3D"Comic Sans MS"=20
  color=3D#000000 size=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SCRIPT"><BR>
  <BLOCKQUOTE=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"=20
  TYPE=3D"CITE">&lt;&lt;If a Student cannot come up to my (an my =
institutions)=20
    expectations, if I wouldn't want a particular student treating my =
Mother,=20
    how can I justify NOT sending that student for evaluation and =
remediation?=20
    <BR><BR>And if remediation fails, how can I justify NOT FAILING such =
a=20
    student?&gt;&gt;<BR></FONT><FONT lang=3D0 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: =
#ffffff"=20
    face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#000000 size=3D2=20
  FAMILY=3D"SCRIPT"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR></FONT><FONT lang=3D0=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 =
size=3D2=20
  FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">If you want an argument, you will have to pick =
another=20
  subject, sir.&nbsp; I use the same criteria.</FONT><FONT lang=3D0=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" face=3D"Comic Sans MS" =
color=3D#000000 size=3D2=20
  FAMILY=3D"SCRIPT"><BR></FONT><FONT lang=3D0 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: =
#ffffff"=20
  face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2 =
FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"><BR></FONT><FONT lang=3D0=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" face=3D"Comic Sans MS" =
color=3D#000000 size=3D2=20
  FAMILY=3D"SCRIPT">&lt;&lt;&lt;snip&gt;=20
  <BLOCKQUOTE=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"=20
  TYPE=3D"CITE">My job is to teach these folks critical thinking skills =
under as=20
    life-like a set of conditions as I can re-create, so they are =
prepared to=20
    act competently at that 3 car pile-up at 3 am. <BR><BR>How do you =
set=20
    standards for this?&nbsp; My students can kill the mannequins as =
many times=20
    as it takes to get their skills up to par, but they have to be ready =
to work=20
    on flesh and blood when I am done with them.&nbsp; =
&gt;&gt;</FONT><FONT=20
    lang=3D0 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" face=3D"Comic Sans MS" =
color=3D#000000=20
    size=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SCRIPT"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR></FONT><FONT =
lang=3D0=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 =
size=3D2=20
  FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">Again, no argument.&nbsp; That's our job.&nbsp; =
MY issues=20
  are with current practitioners who come into an alphabit class - =
especially=20
  Refreshers - and cannot even demonstrate knowledge of the basics like =
cardiac=20
  anatomy, never mind the properties of the drugs they are out there =
already=20
  putting into patients.&nbsp; It's THOSE students who seem to stress =
more than=20
  anybody and for good reason.&nbsp; IMHO - they've been fooling =
themselves and=20
  their patients and they are about to get "caught".&nbsp; <BR><BR>If =
students=20
  are prepared and mentored well, I don't see the need for parlayzing =
stress in=20
  the classroom setting for new or experienced students.&nbsp; Finally,=20
  </FONT><FONT lang=3D0 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" face=3DArial =
color=3D#000000=20
  size=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">if you'd like to continue this, I =
suggest we take it=20
  off line.&nbsp; I do think, however, you misread my intent and if you =
review=20
  it, I hope you will find we are more in agreement than you =
think.&nbsp; If I=20
  did not make myself clear, you (and the list) have my =
apologies.<BR><BR>It's=20
  time to move on - I'm going back to lurking,=20
  again&lt;G&gt;.<BR><BR>Respectfully,<BR><BR>K.P. Rickey<BR>NREMT-P; =
EMS=20
  I/C<BR>and other alphabits<BR>NH/USA<BR></FONT><FONT lang=3D0=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" face=3D"Comic Sans MS" =
color=3D#000000 size=3D2=20
  FAMILY=3D"SCRIPT"><BR></FONT><FONT lang=3D0 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: =
#ffffff"=20
  face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#000000 size=3D2 =
FAMILY=3D"SCRIPT"><BR><BR></FONT><FONT=20
  lang=3D0 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" face=3DArial =
color=3D#000000 size=3D2=20
  FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML>

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